talkmagic.co.uk

Magic isn't dead, far from it, it's just that magicians are often lazy (myself included).

People in the modern age are ALWAYS going to wonder how something is done because we've reached an age where the general public understands enough about science to know that a lot of the things we claim to be able to do are impossible. It's no use assuming that just because your audience doesn't know how a Shapeshifter works they think you have *actually* morphed their card into another.

Magicians do tricks. Everyone knows this. No matter how much we say "Can I show you something amazing?" or "I want to try an experiment" the second you pull out that deck of bikes your spectator is waiting to see a trick, and when it's over they'll (hopefully) be impressed, or possibly even mystified, but I'm willing to bet they won't go home doubting everything they knew to be true about the world and the laws of physics. They know, at the end of the day, it is a show.

That last statement is what differentiates us from the mediums, and psychics and other people who make money by lying to people. The audience know it's a show. When people pay to see me perform, they are paying for a bit of harmless and entertaining deceit. When they pay to see a medium, they are paying for the truth, and not receiving it.

At this point I'd like to point out that I do not share the belief of some (including Paul Brook, for those who have read The Alchemical Tools) that we must do everything we can to distance ourselves from the image of the magician. I like being a magician, I don't want to pretend I'm not. Hell, I perform dressed in Victorian attire, I'm a walking stereotype. The point is that I know that the audience knows it's trickery, so I don't worry about it.

In fact, the audience trying to work out how it's done is often a real ally in magical performance, because they haven't got a clue how stuff works. If you do a card trick they'll assume you did something funny or have a deck full of the seven of clubs (how ridiculous...), but if you perform mentalism the only frame of reference they've got is popular culture (Silence of the Lambs, Rainman, anything by Derren Brown). People don't take a lot of nudging before they convince themselves they've worked out how you did it (it's all NLP, obviously).

So to finish, back to my opening comment: Magicians are lazy. If you are fed up of people seeing how you do tricks, learn a way to do it surrounded. If you are fed up of people recognising techniques or gaffs you use, disguise them better, or don't use them at all. At the end of the day, if you want to make sure noone will know how your tricks are done, develope tricks that only you know how to do...

Ace of Shades wrote: As far as I'm concerned, these iMagicians are just going to make those who truly know what they're doing look even better.

Good speech sir, and also remember what David Devant said;

The Magic Circle seems to think that the mechanics of a trick are the secrets of it's success. In my view it is only the artistry of the performer that can make it magic.

Replace Magic Circle with Youtubers and it's very relevant.

The seer writes, in part: ". . . the performance is the secret key to magic. "

How very true!!!!!

Fitzkee points out that any reasonably intelligent person can figure out how a trick is done, if he or she so desires. So, in reality, there are no secrets in magic props; it seems that only some dealers think so.

I've said it before and I'll keep on saying it:
The person who believes the secrets to magic are in the props is the person who would take a piano apart to find the music

Magic is definitely in the performance and I agree with the comments posted so far. From a hobbyist's perspective, because it is all still fresh and exciting to me I think this is conveyed when I perform magic for friends and strangers. I subscribe to the thought that for every aspect of performance, whether it be patter or the sheer concentration and crumbling of disintegrated pieces in your clenched fist when making a sponge ball disappear, should be launched into with dramatic flair. A friend taught me that if, for instance, you really believe your hand is empty when palming a coin, then this is translated into performance. A sponge ball vanish is something I absolutely love to milk, and I take it as a compliment to my performance when people ask: 1)am I a drama student? or 2)can I have your (business) card? [which I don't have]. Suffice it to say I can be outrageously camp, but this is only because I have a fetish for garish red shirts.

Whilst I've tremendous respect for professional working magicians (one of my friends is one), I do think they are in a sense handicapped from having to sustain levels of energy for a paid gig (wedding, party, corporate, etc), and also because some pros - i may be wrong - develop a superiority complex and talk down to their spectators, as Grimshaw raises. My friend admits to this, and equally gone are the days when he would also perform magic on nights out to the absolute wonder of strangers in the night club chill out room. Perhaps this is a natural deterioration, as in contrast to me, gone are the days when he would spend hours watching a magic DVD, he says. I'd imagine that those who see him perform and those who book him for gigs do not sense this, but I suspect that he and a lot of working pros get less of a personal thrill from performing due to being so accustomed to it. Another magician has told me he has actually stopped practicing magic, and will only perform if asked, although that is because he is concentrating on music. Even starting to think like a magician and not a spectator can have a detrimental effect, and I admit to this sometimes as I tend to disregard self working tricks or tricks with key cards. But I accept I'm missing out on some excellent effects that can absolutely amaze. Like Do As I Do.

I think the day magic is over for the individual is when post magic bug they become jaded. I'm unsure whether this was someone massaging my ego or whether she spoke with sincerity, but a friend of a friend i met on a night out suggested that I start advertising my services as a magician as I was better than the professional magicians she saw doing close up when she used to arrange bar mitzvahs. Obviously mentioning this sounds arrogant and egotistical, but it did get me thinking: what if I was to become a professional and paid weekend magician? Would my interest initially increase, level off and then wean? Paradoxically, by remaining an amateur hobbysit, will this ensure my love of performing magic will always continue, or would being a professional merely speed up a natural decline in wanting to perform at every ridiculous opportunity? (See also: whilst waiting for a lift; on a bouncer whilst going out for a cigarette) I model and inevitably compare myself to the working professional friend who studied magic for 2 years whilst at uni and went professional after 2 years, with gigs every weekend. Whilst he is a truly talented magician and has excellent presentation, i can't help but speculate whether his interest in magic has weaned. By his own admission and website it would seem as if his delving into mentalism is out of boredom of what he now views as cheesy card tricks.

Regardless of interest, however, it has to be the case that when anyone (professional / hobbyist) performs for the spectator, it has to be viewed in the context of a vacuum. What I mean by this is that to an extent it is irrelevant what other magicians do or have done: you perform for a layman and it is likely that person has never seen magic before. So the whole experience is new to them. I'd imagine that if you approached that situation with someone merely going through the motions, then that spark or X Factor which magic performance needs to become magical is not lost in the translation of the jaded or cynical magic interpreter. On a simplistic level, a monotonous and and unexciting throw away statement of: "oh look, the ball's gone from my hand" would result in the spectator's response being equally lacklustre. I think you either throw yourself into something or abstain as opposed to doing something half heartedly, and this relates to showmanship. All magicians should have showmanship.

Another thing that has surprised me about performing magic to friends for the last year or so has been the reactions of certain friends. It saddens me that a small minority of friends still think my ulterior motive for magic is solely as a complex long winded chat up line. What Grimshaw states is true: whilst I am hardly Mr Cassanova, the only advserse reactions have been from guys's comments: such as the aforementioned friend of a friend's boyfriend at the end of the night saying half in pointed jest, half spat out contempt: "thanks for entertaining my girlfriend!". When I was a lot younger and immature I used to go out with guys who would solely want to pull (hence the attendance at bland clubs where RnB or overplayed classics would altenate). [Of course, we still periodically do this, but sugar coat this fact with sophistication and not desperation!]. Anyway, it is only two of our friends (one of whom to an extent accepted but secretly ostracized), who self christened himself as a Ladies Man, but came across as a sleaze ball with his leary arms around women politely trying to flee, that has been critical in an alpha male kind of way: "you loser, why have you brought cards on a night out?" In truth, and again, this makes me sound big headed, he came across as jealous of me performing magic as he clamoured for alternative ways for attention. The other friend that I had not seen for some time started off as being really responsive: "Ok, that WAS pretty good, I'll give you that", to publically throwing my cards all over the restaurant "52 Card Pick Up" style. In fairness we were never really close in school, and he was a penis even back then, but I think such reactions are unintelligent child-like responses, and stem from perceiving magic as a skill being a threat to themselves.

Sorry for that long post, I was really enjoying some background music and got carried away.

I’ve been thinking about something similar of late. We have to get "back to basics" to use that WELL worn political phrase. In trying to determine the USP (unique selling point) of magic, I cannot be detached about magicians but try this – what knocks your sox off in a Mime Artist? Vent act? Juggler? Clown? Hypnotist? Personally, I wouldn’t know an extremely skilled juggler from an average juggler and I presume it’s the same in magic when it comes to “laypeople”. What would make you book tickets and go to a Mime Act, instead of a play, film or west end show? Now apply this thinking to magic. Is it that you’ve seen the artist on TV (Derren Brown, Keith Barry, Paul Zenon)? Your kids are dragging you along (the same way as, perhaps, a circus)? It’s a charity event and you’ve bought the tickets anyway? What IS the pizzazz that magic adds, if any? What do adults want in “early-evening” entertainment – a few drinks, music/sing along (Karaoke) laughter/comedy, witnessing some amazing skill? Apologies for the disjointed nature of post, kind of thinking out loud……..

All art forms ebb and flow with regards to mainstream popularity. the reason for this is the emergence of a new or seemingly different ways of doing things in regards to public perception.
Take for example Mr. Blaine. Up until his arrival with the "Street Magic" special the publics perception to magic had become one of the big illusion and quite frankly they were tired of seeing such things.
Yes to the seasoned magician there was nothing Blaine was doing which was new in regards to close up magic but to the public if was a new approach.
Derren Bown too was a fresh approach in the main-stream for this sort of act and therefore holds a big draw.

Personally i still feel that magic/mentalism is still relatively somewhat in the public eye but has begun to wain slightly.I should think that this slide will probably continue and the already mention establish acts will try to hold on to this by doing larger and more elaborate material some of which we have already experienced.
This, of course is the wrong course of action.
what the public want is something presented in a new and modern way that they haven't seen before.
It's a pity I dont know what this is really but whomever does will be the new magician on the block

greedoniz wrote:what the public want is something presented in a new and modern way that they haven't seen before.
It's a pity I dont know what this is really but whomever does will be the new magician on the block

I think Dynamo presents magic in a new and modern way. Yes, it's the same old tricks everyone has done in the past, but his hippetty-hoppety dress sense, good XCM and preference for beats over waistcoats and a casual approach is different to a previous era of magic presentation. Yes, his performance has flaws in presentation (patter is minimal), but it is the juxtaposition of his magic with his self-proclaimed ghetto Bradford roots that seems fresh. More importantly, as he states in Concrete Playground, magic is his outlet rather than being involved in gangs and an ASBO being placed on him, which means kids of such background can relate and aspire to. It is, to quote Thames Iron's post, his Unique Selling Point.

But what seems to have captured the public's imagination (he was on Jonathan Ross a while ago) is his selection of effects, which to the layman seem a far cry from the usual effects of traditional close up magic (although he does these as well). So, effects such as Holy Shirt, Flare and Colour Changing Shoelaces are understandably striking to the layman (and I suppose the magician) and because he has done something different in terms of repetoir, I'd imagine that the spectator would then value his close up card magic more. He's obviously not as famous as David Blaine, but seems to be fresh and new (to the layman at least - whether or not this is the case in substance remains debatable). From a magician's perspect Dynamo could be perceived as different only on a superficial level (dress sense, culture, et al) but is a seemingly different way of doing magic in the public's eye, and that should stick.

I agree with greedoniz's comments that art forms flow according to mainstream popularity - as with music, as with art - but I do think magic is a bit of a less impressionistic breed. Unlike music, whatever hot trends or effects or what is fashionable seems to go unnoticed in my personal experience, and what was the must-have latest effect may only become discovered 2 years later. Such as with Entourage for me, although that may be because I am a newbie to magic. Unlike music, there seems to be a catch up or lag.

In my view, I am not, for instance, as bothered about what other magicians or magic trends are like as compared to when I am inspired by other musicians to make my own music. You initially compare yourself to other magician's styles, yes, but from that point onwards you develop your own patter, persona, scripts and presentation style. I think this is because as a hobbyist, the world of magic seems less accessible than the world of music, where music is everywhere: on the radio, on TV, in CDs. With magic, at the start, it is only through the hints and tips of others that I've found out about what avenues to explore, what material to learn. Even the simple knowledge that all magicians use Bicycle cards as opposed to, say, playing cards from WH Smith. i found myself in a contextual vacuum, with no reference points until i began to find my feet and acquired magic knowledge (Talk Magic probably was a big help, as I lurked around these very pages efficiently). Of course, you can buy magic and read about it and discuss it on forums, so I suppose it can be perceived as being accessible, but it is incredibly expensive, and it's definitely a closed community as opposed to being as public as say the music community, although both I suppose are quite exclusive, so I suppose my points are a bit circular. There is public awareness about Derren Brown, David Blaine, David Copperfield, Penn and Teller - but anyone else is shadowed in obscurity unless you are a magician. There's an endless list of great magicians out there, many of which you may have bought a DVD from, but these fall below the public radar.

If you want the secret of magic, and you dont yet know what it is, read S.H. Sharpe. A ture master in his own right.

Neo-Magic Artistry
Art and Magic

These works changed me as a performer. Unforunatley these wonderful works have seemed to slip out of the magic scene. I won't tell you more than that, I have made my point already on this thread.

I couldn't agree more with theseer! Each trick, new or old, succeeds or fails on the performance. I've killed with a hot hod and fallen flat on a complicated triumph.

Bottom line, you gotta see the spectator and quickly figure hem out. Then let the spectator's personality lead you to the right trick. I usually spend a few minutes chatting them up before starting to pull anything. In fact, I almost never reveal I do magic, and when it happens, it completely bowls them over and I act as surprised as they are!

Now, in situations where they know I'm a magician, then I work them a little more by doing a simple trick first. What does this do? First, if they know something, then I make it out like they're in on it with me. Later, I'll pull it over them. If they're impressed with the simple tricks, then keep it going.

Bottom line. Magic will NEVER die. It evolves and makes performers work hard to polish tired old tricks into something new and exciting.

Nicely said Archimage!

Some great points and opinions here for sure.

I got to thinking though, while we seem to be talking about the BIG picture here, and how magic is perceived by the layman, and who might be the next DB ( Blaine/Brown ), we must surely not forget those moments im sure we've all experienced; when we perform impromptu magic for someone not expecting it, but who is very open to it.
Then, even the simplest sleight gets maximum reaction.
To these people, at that moment, they care not if they've seen Blaine do it on tv, or if the effect of the trick is a simple one. They've had magic happen before their very eyes, and i think you may have forgotten how powerful that can be sometimes. Of course we know the trick, the rub, the angle, whatever you want to call it, but for those that don't it can leave a very positive impression.

Its times like that i feel certain magic will never die. Humans want to be enchanted, if thats not too strong a word, and we are a group of people who can provide the journey. The internet generation of XCM'ers and magicians are usually too ignorant and pig headed to appreciate the subtleties of the art, and as a result will miss out on the best possible reactions but thats their loss.

Of course in the days of CGI special effects, games consoles, DVDs and mobile phones, a deck of cards needs to work really hard to compete but i have faith in magic and the people that both create and perform it.

Ace of Shades wrote:With all those deck-burning tendencies in mind, I attempted a certain card trick which can actually be done without any cards, courtesy of a certain Mr. B*********

Mr. B********* ?


isnt this taking censorship just a little to far

or is the guy really called bollokchops?

daleshrimpton wrote:

Ace of Shades wrote:With all those deck-burning tendencies in mind, I attempted a certain card trick which can actually be done without any cards, courtesy of a certain Mr. B*********

Mr. B********* ?


isnt this taking censorship just a little to far

or is the guy really called bollokchops?

I'll say "not really" to both. If you know who he is, then there's no problem. I saw this done regarding a certain count by a certain Mr. "E," so I thought I'd take a similar approach over disturbing the thread gods, who probably have better things to do with their time.

Maybe I should've just called him "Mr. B" or "The G B."

I'm sorry to see that's the only thing you got out of my post.