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I have had this a few times, usaully when this happens it stems back to someone who has had a bad experience with magic or a magician,

I had an older woman once who really insisted she hate's magic and wouldn't watch, i later spoke to her and found out that a few years before a magician had made a fool of her infront of her friends and it really effected her. This is why we never make fun of a spectator in a serious manner.

I managed to show her some bits and she really enjoyed it, i like to think i restored some kind of trust in her with magicians.

I'd say the rise and rise of the packet trick demonstrates the loss of favour of the card location. If manufacturers are putting out a shedload of packet tricks then that's where the market is, and if that's the market for people learning tricks, then it's probably the same market for people seeing tricks. That said, the mundanity of the standard card location does give you a nice launchpad for a shocking revelation - if people think they're in for an "is this your card" finish, then you oughtn't have to leap too far from that to get a response. I guess that's why triumph routines seem to remain in good favour, with the card location element often just being a hook on which to hang something even more incredible.

Oh, and a colleague who very much falls into the "I hate magic because the magician always wins" was much impressed the other day when I did a simple TT vanish of the celophane I had just removed from a new DVD. Often it is just the combative nature of magic that needs to be avoided.

Mr Grue, your absolutely right of course.

Just when they are about to yawn with a boring pick a card routine - the unexpected shock end hits them.

You then have commanded their respect for follow up tricks.

Paul Zenon is famous for this type of performance, and my god is he good at it !!!

As with Jean Eugene Roberts, the Chicago Opener / Red Hot Mama is also a firm fave of mine too, and one that sticks in people's minds and / or is requested again. Magic has to be fresh and exciting, and standard pick a card tricks I admit, have the potential to be boring, which is why it's important to cherry pick the best. I would say, however, that Red Hot Mama is fairly standard card fare, BUT its simple and catchy plot which apparently seems as if the magician has messed up is a great premise. Which is why, along with Design For Laughter, its great to do when you're fairly intoxicated and it is very plausible (and therefore convincing when you milk the effect, and really ham up the fact that there's no odd back card in the spread. Prior to the last revelation I incorporate a fancy sybil flourish, and patter along the lines of: I think I was showing off a bit too much there... and then in an embarassed, confidential tone I address a spectator with a confession that drink and being a smarty pants might have messed up the effect or - hang on... there IS one card there that... etc)

It's my opinion, and therefore fact - to quote Piers Morgan off the Marks and Spencers advert - that magic may be considered boring and is refused by a spectator, as Queen of Clubs describes happening to her, only because, let's face it, the traditional image of magicians, for instance, pattering on about cards "going back in time" and so on, can be considered as antiquated as top hats and monocles.

There was an interesting thread on TM some weeks ago about patter in magic, but specifically in relation to this thread, the overall effect (not just the patter), as well as to an extent the selection of effects, needs to be fresh and original so as to distance you - as a performer - away from being the repetitious and boring magician that a small minority of the public unfairly preconcieves you to be. Indeed, as Mandrake states, the standard pick a card tricks as easily performed by laymen does mean that card magic can suffer, which is why in the Is Magic Over thread I suggested that Dynamo is considered fresh and original as he uses lots of non-card based effects to wow, despite these being well-known to our wonderful community. Similarly, on a presentational level, there are ways, as suggested in RRTCM in Card To Pocket of ostensibly presenting a non pick-a-card effect. To all intents and purposes you are, but you are presenting as a mind reading effect: but the spectator is still picking a card. I suppose you could also throw in some other patter or linguistics, but it's all spin on picking a card.

Why do some people view magic as boring? At the risk of the last paragraph sounding like merely a platitude on performance, I propose a less vague example; and there's no finer example than Red Hot Mama as a case in point. As a newbie I first came across Red Hot Mama (Innuendo Bingo THAT one! ) in Gerry Griffin's Complete Card Magic. OK, I appreciate it was an instructional performance, and that's why it was so lacklustre, but the Griffin performance was no exception. There's countless magicians doing the same thing.

So you can put put things in context, my magic was performed on nights out where much alcohol was imbibed in vast quantities. Accordingly, I needed a hook or premise for most of my effects. Bear in mind that I prefer using red backed cards as my usual deck and that my magic was initially considered by some of my sceptical and disapproving friends as a gimmicked chat up line, I came up with the notion that the spectator should blow a kiss at the deck, inadvertently being an ironic self-fulfilling prophecy. "To be honest, I don't know why I do this, but when someone blows a kiss at me, I always try and be smooth and play it cool, but as you can see here, it's got to the point where my cards actually change colour into an icy cold blue colour..." etc.

Now, whilst in fairness Red Hot Mama IS a great trick, what makes my performance fresh, if I do say so myself, is actually the background of alcohol, the bar, the exciting playground of wonder that is going out, flirting etc. - all this provides a context for patter, and I believe such presentation makes it different to the traditional and perhaps now unfashionable patter of there's a "this card entered a blackhole into a different dimension and transformed into the jack of diamonds".

I would like to think that as magicians do their rounds, there will come a time when you show magic to someone has, say, seen a professional magician in action. Accordingly as magicskiski says, I agree that spectators may have had a bad experience of being humiliated, which is wrong as you are enlisting the volunteer's help, not developing an effect so as to belittel them and show them how masterful or big you are. So, the fact that they know they are being tricked, or even say to you: "I just don't like not knowing how things work - I question things", shouldn't be a reflection on you as a performer, rather, just their own viewpoint. Of course the ideal situation would be to win them over, but getting back to the topic and my earlier continuous prose of a loosely formed point, I think as a community we should incite a call to arms to bring that X Factor or originality to performing magic as opposed to the countless iMagicians who want to be carbon copies of David Blaine and merely aspire to emulate rather than create, possibly in the process give magic a bad name. I'm not criticising such people as everyone has their idols, but equally I think it's important to be inspired but not to be a clone.

Apologies for the book!

Wow - did'nt expect a book !!! -

I once heard someone say they "love hambugers" and thought "love" might be a bit strong...

Funny thing is I didn't know that trick was called red hot mamma I just watched another magician perform it and worked it out.

My patter is to tell the person that I was really fair with the card selection (I flip through slowly allowing them to see any card and say stop at a card they want) and the shuffle (a false shuffle but they don't know that) and the reason I was so fair with the selection and the shuffle was because the cards are marked and the marking on there card was so obvious I didn't evan have to look hard.

I like this patter because once again the participant is expecting something boring and normal like marked cards and then see the red backed card and realize something magical has just happened.

Lawrence wrote:I once heard someone say they "love hambugers" and thought "love" might be a bit strong...

No, I think love is the right word, particulalry when served with cheese and bacon with a dash of tomato sauce.

Jon Armstrong's piece in the latest issue of Reel Magic is called "Never, ever say, 'pick a card'". Wise words.

I think everyone gets this from time to time, there are people who just aren't interested it magic the same as there are people who don't like watching plays.

Alot of the time, where you are performing will make a big difference to the reactions that your get. If you're approaching people in the street or going up to them in the pub then you can expect that sort of response quite a bit because some people just don't have time to stop and watch you or are enjoying a quite drink with friends and don't want to be disturbed.

On the other hand, if you're at a function which has advertised that a magician will be performing then you're much less likly to get that reaction.

I think some of it is pride. People dont like being made a fool of, as many have said, and why should they be made to feel foolish?

Of course it's not our intention, i want them to be mystified and entertained, that's what i strive for with whatever i do in magic. Surely that's the point. Some people just don't get it, they see it as childish and silly.

A confession here; when i first got heavily into magic about 4 or 5 years ago, i was very embarrassed at first. I thought people would relate it to kid's magic box sets where they wear a cape and wave a wand. Of course i received jokes when i started doing magic for family and friends, jokes along the rabbit out of the hat and can you make your mother disappear variety. Of course it only made me work harder to be taken seriously with what i was doing and to make the effects more gob smacking.

In truth i feel sorry for those people who dont enjoy magic. What it must be like to be so stuck up....

Grimshaw wrote:i received jokes when i started doing magic for family and friends, jokes along the rabbit out of the hat and can you make your mother disappear variety

Trust me... this will happen all throughout your career in Magic - just learn some stock lines to come back at them with!!!

I guess I would prefer to hear "I hate magic" or something along those lines up front rather than during the routine or after I've unveiled effect thinking I just did a great job of it.

I myself don't have a problem with "pick a card" - haven't gotten to Jon Armstrong's piece on it yet, but very soon. That said, there are nearly as many card tricks out there that are more of the 'demonstration' variety - the best example I can think of are poker/bridge/blackjack deals where there's no specific target among the spectators; no card picking. They just watch while you do your thing and comment about what's going on. The same can be said for the multitude of packet tricks available.

What about tricks where the magician picks the card and the spectator does the magic? Or the spectator just does the trick themselves? I'm quickly becoming a fan of these, as the spectator is much more involved and far fewer eyes glazing over as a result.

Granted, I would have to say that 'most' (not all, but most) people don't appreciate being made to look like a fool or even just feeling that way. I'd also wager that a good number of them wouldn't mind someone else looking like a fool. Of course, there's also something to be said about the art of picking your spectators. I'm still working on that, and it doesn't help that my supply's a bit limited at the moment. Fortunately, they're a very nice audience, at least to my face.

I think some people are taking this waaaay to deep. You will always get people who say things like "I Hate Magic" and some genuinely do, it freaks some people out so they genuinely would rather not see it.

Or they just dont like it. simple. It is just a form of entertainment at the end of the day.

For example some people say, "I dont like football".."why?".." just dont like it, its boring!" - and to someone like me who only ever cries in life when England get knocked out of every bloody tournament i can't believe it!! but horses for coarses eh?

in my experience the VAST VAST majority of people enjoy a good trick.