talkmagic.co.uk

Lawrence wrote:

queen of clubs wrote:

Tapion1ives wrote:... its a impromptu ID routine...

Tapion1ives wrote:... the deck needs to be stacked...

Ah, well there we go. Immediately that is not impromptu.

Steady on, don't go mistaking "impromptu" for "unprepared".

It never fails to amaze me that many magicians don't seem to understand your point. Impromptu is from the audience perspective not the magicians. To quote Robin Williams, the king of improve, "I've spent years practicing improv"

bmat wrote:It never fails to amaze me that many magicians don't seem to understand your point. Impromptu is from the audience perspective not the magicians. To quote Robin Williams, the king of improve, "I've spent years practicing improv"

So if a method requiring the entire deck to be stacked can still be called impromptu what passes for not impromptu?! Impromptu, the way I'm choosing to understand it, means you can just do it. Just like that. But unless you carry around a stacked deck everywhere you go that matches your regular deck, and you're rather good at switching out/in, then this is surely not impromptu.

It's not worth an argument though, obviously.

bmat wrote:It never fails to amaze me that many magicians don't seem to understand your point. Impromptu is from the audience perspective not the magicians. To quote Robin Williams, the king of improve, "I've spent years practicing improv"

I hate to argue semantics, but:

According to the Oxford Dictionary: im•promptu adj. done without preparation or planning improvised: an impromptu speech They often held impromptu meetings in their house.

with the key, as far as magic is concerned, is without preparation. Robin Williams' definition of improvisation does not apply here.

Improvisation, again from Oxford:

1 to make or do sth using whatever is available, usually because you do not have what you really need: [v] There isn’t much equipment. We’re going to have to improvise. [vn] We improvised some shelves out of planks of wood and bricks.
2 ~ (on sth) to invent music, the words in a play, a statement, etc. while you are playing or speaking, instead of planning it in advance: [v] ‘It’ll be ready some time next week, I expect,’ she said, improvising. He improvised on the melody. [vn] an improvised speech

Improvisation, basically, means to make it up as you go along, although, as Robin Williams pointed out, many "improvs" can be planned.

So, back to magic, Impromptu, from the magic sense means that there is no pre-arrangement or special equipment needed and that any stacking (for cards) or any other secret preparation are done while the effect is being performed.

A prefect example if the levitation effect using two folding chairs (where the person is laid across two chairs, on at the head the other at the feet, and then the chair at the feet is removed leaving the person floating balanced on the one chair, defying all known lays of physics) . If you are someplace that happens to have two folding chairs this effect could appear impromptu, but I do not believe that I am guilty of any sort of exposure by stating that it there was some advanced preparation, and therefore the effect is not impromptu.

So, as it applied to an effect "impromptu" is defined from the point of view of the magician, not the audience.

The Queen of Clubs is correct.

I always think as impromptu from the audiences point of view. To them it looks like you've just grabbed your cards, a coin or what ever you want tro perform with and off you go. There may or may not be any preparation involved but as long as it appears that there's no preparation then to me it's impromptu.

I'm with Kolisar on this one. "Impromptu" means unprepared (except for knowing how to do it) -- you can grab any deck of cards, any coin, any scrap of paper and pencil, etc. and do the trick.

The sort of tricks described by Dirty Davey I would call "pseudo-impromptu" or "impromptu-looking". Using a stacked deck straight from the card box as though it was randomly shuffled, or switching a gimmick for a borrowed coin. Or, indeed, any effect that depends on you having a little special something hidden about your person. Even if you go out every day wearing your PK ring or carrying your gaffed coin, using them is still not impromptu because if you were ever caught without them you couldn't do the trick.

Robin Williams' comment on improvisation is misleading people here. He wasn't referring to doing phony ad-libs with pre-written scripts. He was talking about the amount of practice, work, and training necessary to develop an agile, fertile imagination that works fast enough to make improv entertaining.

Dirty Davey wrote:I always think as impromptu from the audiences point of view. To them it looks like you've just grabbed your cards, a coin or what ever you want tro perform with and off you go. There may or may not be any preparation involved but as long as it appears that there's no preparation then to me it's impromptu.

That argument is something of a busted flush, though, isn't it (forgive the deliberate pun)? Because all magic appears unprepared to the spectator - that's the point of it. No tricks are presented in such a way that the audience goes "Oh, yeah, that was a great trick where he/she set up the deck beforehand". Therefore impromptu must mean from the magician's point of view.

Maybe we need a glossary of terms. Hang on, we have one already, don't we somewhere on the forums? I remember seeing it.

I see your point Queen of Clubs but what I mean by from the spectators point of view is that say a sponge ball routine isn't impromptu because you're using some strange magic balls. On the other hand if you were to take their twix wrapper and make it vanish or push their coins through the table one by one even though the first routine might actually be less gimmicked than the others.

I don't know, perhaps it's one of those words that everyone interperates in their own way.

well i sem to have caused an arguemnet on the definition of impromptu, lol

well my trick involved doing another trick before hand which stacked the deck to a degree then some clever shuffling to get it in a decent order.

also it involved marking the deck with a thumb nail mark

all in all it was a lot of work for what i still defend as a good effect with a borrowed deck

Not that I necessarily want to keep this going, but I still feel that the key to impromptu is the lack of prior setup. I think Tapion1ives gives a good test for impromptu

with a borrowed deck

I think that this need to be clarified a little more by stating that you can use a borrowed deck and immediately begin performing. Obviously, if you borrow a deck and walk away for a few minutes to get it into Stebbins, you have lost the impromptu nature of the effect (based on the definitions and explanations I provided earlier).

It's also a bit of a stretch to call it impromptu if you're talking about not only stacking but thumbnail denting a borrowed deck. I think it's back to the drawing board with you, sir!

well you have to stack the deck for many impromptu versions of ootw
and theres one or two tricks in royal road the required thumb denting a card.

both i would consider impromptu

at what point is it not impromptu.

Tapion1ives wrote:well you have to stack the deck for many impromptu versions of ootw

That's an interesting point. I'm not even sure I'd call OOTW fully impromptu, although it's a lot quicker to cull seperate red and black (10 seconds or so) than it is to stack the deck in the way you describe for your ID routine.

Having thought about it a bit more, I think "impromptu" depends on the proficiency of the performer. If you can take a borrowed deck and stack it correctly under the specs nose without them suspecting anything and then go into the effect, then yes, it's impromptu, and you're excellent with a deck of cards. I fear that most people wouldn't be able to manage it though.

I've always seen impromptu as being something you can do with other people's decks or with their items pretty much on the spot/from the get go.

So i would put OOTW in there, as would i maybe a whole suit stack too. Paul Hallas's 43 for example, is a mighty fine effect, but that requires some set up. However, you can do that in an impromptu situation.

Well, i can - so I'm sure you can too. Maybe we should set a time limit and let Paul Daniels' announce it via Ali Bongo's Fez (rather like a bright red and tassley megaphone). Anything that doesnt require an embarrassing silence is classed as impromptu. Your scripting should obviously cover any stacking/culling needed.

When i see adverts saying "requires no set-up", that to me means impromptu. But having to have a card a certain position from the top/bottom. Then that could be classed as not impromptu, or may i venture the word - promptu; as you could easily injog and shuffle and so forth to get the card at the position required.

Who the devil opened this can of impromptu worms anyway?! It's Christmas.

in that case i recommend mnemonica by tamariz and also the nikola method of setting up the stack during a performance is quite amazing as you can get the audience to participate in it unknowingly

Duplicity wrote:Who the devil opened this can of impromptu worms anyway?! It's Christmas.

i fear that was me. I'm sorry.