talkmagic.co.uk

Hey

Last week I started doing my card-tricks with some flourishes, one in the beginning of the "mini-show" and one in the end. This was VERY appriciated and it makes the people you're doing the trick to think that the trick's all about fast fingers.

Since I'm a newbie and didn't know the amazing effect flourishes can have until recently I thought I'd shout it out to all of the other newbies here!

An easy one to start off with is the Butterfly Cut (the only pervious knowledge needed for it is being able to do Charliers with both left and right hand.)

Hannah

Shad0w wrote:... it makes the people you're doing the trick to think that the trick's all about fast fingers.

Yes but is this what you want?

Personally I prefer a minimum use of flourishes for the reason you've already given. Also it can easily be interpreted as simply showing off.

saxmad - well, yeah? or, why wouldn't I want them to think it's all about fast fingers? I haven't really thought about it that much..

I don't think it's that much showing off, at least not if you don't do really complicated stuff, cause as an entertainer (that all the magicians I've met have seen themselves as) you're supposed to do a good presentation, right? and doesn't the flourishes help with that?

but then again, I'm a total newbie so maybe you guys are right..

Well the argument goes along the lines that if your audience think it is all done with fast fingers then they have an explanation for how it was done, whether it be correct or not. If they are left, however, knowing that what they have just seen can't possibly be done then it is likely that they will be more astounded, it will seem more like real magic and they will remember it for longer.

It can be gratifying at first for people to compliment you on how quick you are or whatever but most performers agree that ultimately it is the belief that a spectator has witnessed the impossible that they remember.

the question is how much flourishes do u use before you seem to be showing off.

If someone says to me "wow that was fast" or something like that - I'll go back and rework the effect. I even drop cards when i shuffle sometimes (although that's thanks to an injury to my left hand and it tends to be a bit clumsy sometimes).

I guess it depends on what you're trying to put across. If you're doing a gambling demonstration, then fast fingers may be what you're trying to put across. Personally, I like to leave the specs with a sense of mystery and a sense of the faint possibility that what they witnessed was the real thing. I guess it's one of the reasons I don't do many card effects - just the kind that involve an element of mind reading, or things like card warp and color fusion - where the nature of the card changes, but in a way that precludes the possibility of sleight of hand (from the audience's point of view).

I once performed a card trick for some friends and they just dismissed it as "sleight of hand".

They had no idea what I did, and I didn't even use any flourishes, but they found a plausible answer to what they saw, so they were able to decide that it wasn't "Magic".

To me, this is one of the worst things that can happen to a magician.....

I think spectators are generally more intelligent than we'd like them to be. Most times when you take out a deck of cards - and perform an effect where you handle the deck, the logical assumption is sleight of hand, or it's a trick deck.
Some times sleight of hand can be so good that it's an art form in itself - but I know that's not what I'm after, although i won't deny that there's a place for it.(and it's also a load of hard work )
If you want people to get the feeling that magic has taken place - well then you need to do magical things. You have to think out of the box (the card box). If I could do real magic I certainly wouldn't do a bunch of card tricks. Although if i could really read people's minds I may use something like a deck of cards to demonstrate it.

As this conversation is already split 50/50, I'll add my four pennorth...


50% OF ME SAYS....
IF YOU ARE A CARD MAGICIAN...
...then flourishes can be detrimental. They look good as 'asides', but there is a school of thought which kind of says "Well yeah, you are good with your hands... so surely a simple card trick is nothing to a man of your calibre? Yawn"

So, the advice in this instance is to 'play-down' the flourishes.

However...

Some flourishes are utilities, as opposed to being mere showing off. False cuts, blind shuffles, blind cuts and suchlike not only LOOK good, but they also give the impression that you are mixing the cards, which of course, you're not.

The downside, or, the forementioned 'detrimental' side to flourishes is this: You will attract unwanted attention to your sleights. Try performing a Z-cut, a few waterfalls and then try to get away with a classic pass. You will attract scrutiny.

To illustrate the pros and cons, here are some card magicians' who use/don't use flourishes...

JEFF MCBRIDE - Uses flourishes
Card manipulator... I affectionately think of him as "Mr Manipulator". His flourishes and manipulations are the mainstay of his performance. He can literally mesmerise with his flourishes alone. Although he DOES perform card tricks, they are usually very visual.

LENNART GREEN - Uses flourishes
Master card technician Green uses flourishes and embelishments to confuse and distract. His amazing deftness with the cards is almost poetic. Amidst clumsy, chaotic looking flourishes, he is actually in total control. Skill of this level takes years to accomplish.

DARYL - Flourishes would discredit
Daryl is known as 'the magician's magician'. He's a real suave, cool and amusing magician. Although he DOES use the odd 'embelishment', he also uses a helluva lot of sleights. Excessive use of flourishes would give rise to unwanted questions in his performance.

JAY SANKEY - Flourishes are used, but in moderation
Jay himself would probably admit that over-use of flourishes seriously dulls the performance, and also gives the spectator cause for concern. Hmmm...
Jays magic is direct. In your face, under your nose. Followers of the school of Jay will know his 3 'killer' sleights, and it's the fact that most of his magic is so clean, so simple, that a misplaced 'showoff' flourish would cause immediate suspicion.
Jay's work is definately 'sans-flourish', but he still keeps the eye candy going with some lovely blind cuts once in a while.
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BUT.... THE OTHER 50% OF ME SAYS....
...that surely a card magician can use a flourish to DISTRACT his unsuspecting audience?
Surely, an awesome 'super-flourish' will hide a tiny classic pass? After all, we all know that 'Use a large action to cover a small action' is a good basis for our sleights? Right?

Right.

But I see this as my worst nightmare also... and it reminds me of the most awful magician I'd ever seen... a performer at a wedding I went to whose flourishes were very good indeed. But, once he'd finished showing off, and you subtracted the amount of time he spent fanning/spreading/cutting/riffling/cascading/stacking the cards—you were left with very little.
And worst still—his sleights were AWFUL. Terrible!

So, advice to newbies... LEARN THE BASICS OF CARD SLEIGHTS FIRST. Use flourishes as an embelishment—a 'flourish', after all is:
'A graceful display, visibly doing well'

You can't cover cruddy sleights and poor tricks up with flourishes.

By all means, use them. But use them wisely.

My own use of flourishes follow rules:

1. NEVER look at the cards while performing a flourish
2. USE THE FLOURISH just once, don't repeat
3. USE IT AS AN ASIDE... a visual treat whilst you are explaining an effect for instance
4. DO NOT SHOWCASE THE FLOURISH, just play it down—after all, you want your TRICKS to be amazing, not your card flourish
5. DONT' BE A SMART *rse!!! People straight away will get the wrong impression if they see you trying to show-off

Hmmm.... I am sure I have just opened a can of worms, but I had a spare 10 mins whilst waiting for a client to arrive... and it so annoys me when people leave me out of a good debate

In my limited experience I have found that what wows people are the tricks not the flourishes.

Sorry rushed for time or I would add more on this fascinating debate.

Well written Seige (as usual).

I'll add that a good trick and one that's performed well can be done at a variety of different paces to suit the spectator's pace. I often pause to ensure that the spec is keeping up with what I want them to concentrate on, particularly if it's a multi-phase trick or routine.

Remember that you're performing for others and not for yourself. If you run away at your own pace and leave the spec trailing too far behind, then they will get bored. Personally, I find that too many flourishes, or even the wrong flourish can ruin a trick and leave the impression in the specs mind that you're good at 'shuffling' instead of being good at magic.

The only ones that I use are flourishes and controls to give the impression of a mix when the deck is actually returned to the same order.

as a none cardie and a confirmed stripper user (sorry purists) but the closest i get to a flurish is to cut the chosen card to either the top or bottom of the deck.

unless you count sticking the chosen card in my glasses as a florish .

as a coin worker i supose its similar to useing elaborate florishes when producing or vanishing coins, the trick works far better when you leave them out as it makes the transitions seem more natural and therfore more magical.
its tempting to add lots of flourishes and coin rolls when you do a misers dream sequence, but the lay audience get bored quickly with a smartass.

doing flourishes as a warm up or prelude to doing some card tricks can engage the audience and even precondition them to a slightly arkward move later on like a pass or a rist kill, bottom deal etc but when its time to do the tricks keep them as clean as possible.

Being a little underexperienced in these matters I can only comment on what I've found during my limited amount of performances (I say performances.. what I mean is the odd "have you seen this" type stuff).

Anyway.. I really like Daryl's presentation style. He doesn't seem to use many (if any) flourishes but from my observations (and I could be wrong) seems to wow the audience more when he seems a little surprised by the outcome. Like he meant to do something but is a little surprised that this happened instead (not surprised that it worked.. more of a surprised that this effect happened instead of some other).

Of course there is more to it that just this.. but at certain points he does use this to good effect (although it is very subtle). I also noticed that Derren Brown does this (again very subtly) in his Picturebook Video every so offten.

From what I've seen, all these things (flourishes, presentation, comedy etc..) all have their place in enhancing "magic's" effect. Which ones you use when seems to be determined by both the performer, the situation and the trick (something I haven't figured out yet)

Just my observations as I've worked through some stuff. (so they may not be right.. but hey.. I'm learning.. hopefully)

Slippery

Hmmmm, some interesting replies

As a working magician I'll go along with what has been said, being professional at working a card trick is far better than doing a flourish. Showing off isn't entertaining. Its better that your skill you use and have isn't seen.

Only my opinion