talkmagic.co.uk

I am going to copy and paste an email I had to send them in regards to an issue, the have since stopped responding to my emails. I'll only take out any personal details...



Make sure this email gets passed onto Brad Christian, until I get a response from him PERSONALLY, I am going to email Ellusionist EVERY SINGLE DAY.

The customer service from Ellusionist is horrific, and before you think I am just another disgruntled customer, I want you to know that I worked in sales and I worked in customer service. Let me show you what exactly is wrong with your customer service. We'll go through it email by email...

I obviously sent the first one, do have a read if your not busy?

Hi guys,

I just received my order today and it got here in great time, however I have to say I'm extremely unhappy with the Tarantula product, it's extremely unreliable and I cant ever see myself using it in a live setting. I do I.T. work a lot but this gimmick takes to long to fix when the string breaks, which in this case is every five seconds. Plus it doesn't fit my hand comfortably and I dont want to go bending and cutting it. I was hoping to return it for a refund or store credit if possible?

Also with the two half dollar shells that I ordered, one of them has a mark on it that stands out a bit much and I'd like to exchange it for a one that is unmarked if that would be possible?

However the problem that I have is that I'm shooting a promo DVD on the 8th of may and I need the shell for that date, so for safety's sake would it be ok to send back the Tarantula now and the shell after the DVD shoot?

Sorry for being a pain in the backside.

Many thanks

Customer

In the above email you might notice that I was trying to be reasonable instead of asking for an outright refund which under consumer law, I am perfectly entitled to.

Here is "someones" reply from Ellusionist. I say "someone" because no one signed it.


Hi Customer,

I'm sorry, Tarantula is not available for refund. If the device is defective then we'll be happy to replace it, or assist you with troubleshooting issues you may have.

Please include a few images of the Tarantula gimmick and the marked shell so we can see them.

Thanks!

Wow, not available for refund eh? Have magic shops some special law that applies to only them? Lets see what I said back...

Hi,

I thought you guys had a 30 day money back refund?

Cheers

Shock horror, I got no reply? So I send the following.

Hi

I checked the site and nowhere do i see the Tarantula is non refundable. I checked your 90 day refund policy and that it only applies to certain products which quite frankly is BS.

You guys know as well as I do that under consumer law a person is entitled to get a refund on any product they have purchased if they feel they are unhappy with it, online returns are to be done within a 14 day period (I used to work in customer service). As stated in the original email, I received this product today and in no way does it live up to the demo. I use IT all the time and can make it last quite a while but this thing doesn't last 5 minutes... literally!!

I have been buying from Ellusionist for years (email address was the other email address I used) and don't think I ever had to contact customer support before.

I paid $70.00 for this product and it's not worth it in the least.. I'm not a kid, I'm a working professional, and it's all I do. I'm not going to drop this and will take it as far as I have to because I really don't have the money to throw away on this product.

The shell I don't care too much about as I can live with it, but I'm not keeping this Tarantula product end of story. I've tried to be reasonable and exchange it for store credit, I don't know what else I can do.

Kind regards.

Customer

As annoyed as I was in the above email after not getting a reply and being told something is "non refundable", I was still trying to be reasonable by letting the problem with the shell go. Lets have a look at "some one else's" reply to this. I also want to point out that I am aware that opened software and DVD's can be refused to be taken back but this is usually taken in context and should not be a problem with a long term customer, however, this is an educational DVD which comes as part of a gimmick there for the two are considered as one as that is the way you chose to sell them. So... I am entitled to return them, but lets read on.


Customer

I understand tarantula is a delicate gimmick and I am sorry you are unhappy with your purchase.
I will accept your return this time, but please understand that we sell "secrets". That is why not all the products are refundable. DVDs are also not an usual refundable/returnable item. I do not know any video store that will accept back an opened DVD.
That being said, we are making an exception this time only to a good, long time customer.
Here is your RMA and instructions:


Any products returned to our warehouse without a valid RMA number clearly visible on the outside of the package will be refused and returned to sender unopened. Shipping charges are non refundable.

• Please fill out the form below and include it with your package.
• Products must be returned to Ellusionist.com within ten (10) days of issue of the RMA number.
• The customer assumes responsibility for all returned product up to delivery at our warehouse, shipping via an insurable carrier with tracking is recommended. Customer is responsible for all shipping costs.
• Any product found to be damaged through misuse, abuse or negligence is not eligible for replacement or refund.

Under normal operation, RMA Returns will be processed with within 10 days after receipt at Ellusionist.com

Name:_____________________________
Order #____________________

Reason for return: __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Send your package to:
Ellusionist.com - RMA #___________________
440 Coloma Street
Sausalito, CA 94965

Date:________________ Signature:____________________________________________

Thank you,

No problem, you spelled my name wrong and again there was no name on the email, but thank you for "making the exception" as I've been buying from Ellusionist almost since it was opened. Here is what I sent back...


Hi,

Thanks for setting up the RMA, and I appreciate what you are saying about selling secrets, especially in these days of internet piracy. I just want you to know that I am not in the habit of returning store products at all, but in this case I was just extremely unhappy with the value for money.

I will be posting off the Tarantula later today and I hope it will be with you within the 10 day period as it is coming from Ireland, can you please notify me when you get it?

And seeing as you were so fair and quick in dealing with the issue, I would like to receive store credit so that I can show you that I do value your fairness in dealing with the issue, and that I wish to give my business to Ellusionist now and in the future. The items I will order upon issue of the store credit will be Torn by Daniel Garcia and the first volume of the Daniel Garcia Project and perhaps more as well.

Thank you for you patience in dealing with the issue so promptly and effectively, and because of you I will certainly continue dealing with Ellusionist and I hope you pass this email onto your supervisor, or to Brad himself preferably as a sign of the brilliant work you did in resolving this issue.

Once again, many thanks

Customer

I literally could not have been nicer here, all I asked was TO BE NOTIFIED WHEN YOU RECEIVED THE PRODUCT. If I had copied the DVD do you really think that I would have asked for store credit? Even though NONE of the emails Ellusionist send had a signature I tried to make someones day by giving them a positive letter even though the service I had gotten so far was very cold and impersonal. Lets see what I got back from Ellusionist after that email?...

Customer

Unfortunately Ellusionist cannot issue store credit at this time. Please write down the items you would like to exchange your tarantula on your RMA form so it can be processed once we receive it.
You will receive an e-mail once we process your exchange.

regards

Not even a hello or a signature... Again, how cold can you get? But heres the line to remember from that email... "You will receive an e-mail once we process your exchange". I NEVER received an email, not when you received the products I sent back, nor did I receive an email when you decided after 17 days to just refund my card out of the blue without discussing it with me, when CLEARLY I had stated ON THE RMA FORM and ON THE GOD DAMN EMAILS NUMEROUS TIMES the items I wanted a replacement for. But hey.... Lets read on. It gets SO much better. Here is what I sent back.



Hi

Thats no problem, Would it be ok to exchange it For Daniel Garcia's Torn and also Volume 1 of the Daniel Garcia project?

The items have left today.

Many thanks

Customer

Again you might notice I was civilzed enough to actually say "Hi" and actually put my signature on an email... You know, stuff that everyone does. Also for the second time on email I mentioned the products I would like in exchange. But lets look at the email I got back, because its an absolute classic...


yes, not a problem.

Regards

Please note... I didn't just copy and paste something from a larger section (although I did leave out the advertising), THAT, was the whole reply I got back, no hello, no signature not even a capitol letter at the start of the first sentence. I mean is this person for real. It's basically saying to the customer "F**k you, your a problem to us".

So then a long time passes by... 18 days I believe, and I send this...


Just checking on the status of the replacement items... I haven't even been told if you received the Tarantula order that I sent back, let alone if you have sent out the DVD's that I asked for instead of it? That was 18 days ago.

Regards

I decide in this email to treat you as you treat me, which is basically like c*** (not the best). I dont put a "hello" nor do I put a signature. Why should I? Of course I may have addressed it to someone had Ellusionist the courtesy to attach a name to an email that they send, like any other person would. But of course I don't want to be too hard here, everyone wants to avoid work and if an email is addressed to you, isn't that more work? We cant have that, lord no. Here is the unbelievable reply I got back.

Hi

Your refund was processed on 5/15/09 and an e-mail was sent to you. We made a mistake and refunded your card instead of sending you the items requested.
I apologize for the inconvenience.

Thankfully here, someone actually put a "hi" on the email, bless whoever just happened to do that as I know it does take two key strokes to do that. But sadly, a lie was told because NO email was sent, if it was I'd love to see it, of course the wrong date will be on it now wont it?

Basically the understanding I get is, Ellusionist said, "Hey... if we swap those items for the customer, which come to just under equal value, we may have to pay a few extra cents on postage and packaging, screw him, lets just refund the card and not tell him. So what if he is waiting for a package he'll never get? Thats his problem"...

And another thing you may want to reconsider? Leave this out of your emails to the customer:

Ticket ID: 123456
Department: Shipping Status
Priority: Low
Status: Closed

It just makes the customer think that you couldn't give a c*** (not the best) about sorting this out. And when I see status closed, I presumed the items I asked for were on there way.

If I do not get the products I requested FOC I will take this to the furthest points that I can and I will let every magician in every forum I visit know exactly how I have been treated, and I will do that by posting this very email.

I tried to be reasonable at every single step of the way and all the while I was treated like dirt. Brad I really hope you read this and I actually hope it's you that replies, because every person I've dealt with so far is completely incompetent, hence this email.

After working in customer service I really cant believe an organization as big as Ellusionist treats their customers like this, had I dealt with your customer service before I would not have placed this order that is for sure.

I await your reply.

Customer

After that email was sent I got the following and my emails have been ignored since.... But I'll continue to mail them as often as possible until I get a reply.

Customer

I am sorry to inform you that Brad will not reply to your e-mail.
I understand a mistake was made. I am unable to see the end of your e-mail or maybe it was not sent but your e-mail ends with your RMA approval.
Since you worked with sales and customer service; I am sure you understand that we are all human and mistakes can happen.
In this case it worked better for you, the customer, as we refunded your money to your credit card. I can charge you again and send you the items if that is what you want, just e-mail me back. Our team apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you.
I am sorry you are so disappointed with our customer service, we did our best to accomodate your needs.

Sincerely,
Agents name included

I sent back the following.... Bear in mind, this was the first time I had gotten a name since this whole thing started.

Agent,

I will forward the email here although I'm quite sure it will make no difference whatsoever, usually when a customer has been treated like c*** (not the best), as I have at least SOME form of a good will gesture is offered, but the very fact that I have to tell you this says everything I need to know about Ellusionist. I really would like you to bear in mind how reasonable I have tried to be in this situation, but now I am flat out furious. I literally do not believe this. If anything about why I feel this way isn't clear.... Please read this email. I included the above email again.

If the mods decide to take this down I'll understand, but I really would like to hear what other magicians think here.

I know I am over reacting, but i have spent a lot of money with these "people" over the past few years and I cant believe that there is a business out there that will actually ignore a long term customer... I really cant believe it.

Wha hey.... A few emails in block capitols yields this results in the following email from Ellusionist

Customer

Excuse me, but do you think you are the only customer that needs an e-mail replied to?
What do you need? What do you want?
We accomodated you on a product that is NON REFUNDABLE, NON RETURNABLE. Any other customer would have received a no as a response but we
made an exception for you because you really are a valued customer.
Your money has been refunded. We made a mistake, I apologized.
There is no need to be rude to any member of our staff when all we did was try to help you.

This ends here.

I wish you all the best with your magic journey.



To which I replied...


No wonder you have so many emails to reply to, I would think the levels of mistakes you are making are huge judging from what I have seen.

And again thanks for NOT signing your name to the email whoever you are. Just what is it that you people find so hard about signing your name to an email?? Is it possibly because you might be held responsible in case something goes wrong? As it has here?

I'll tell you what I wanted? To be treated like a long term customer of a business. The taking back of the Tarantula is not something big as I have explained in the previous emails if you would like to read over them, but since you didnt take the time to do that in the first place, I doubt you'll do it now.

If you took the time to actually handle this issue properly you would have noted that not one MISTAKE was made, but NUMEROUS MISTAKES were made. Had you taken the time to read the emails I sent properly you would have seen "What do you need? What do you want?"

But look, I'm no angel either, I'll admit that I WAS overboard by asking for the items I wanted FOC (which stands for Free..... Of...... Charge). And I'll admit that the reason I was wrong is because I was infuriated at the level of treatment I received. If you cant remember why that treatment was so bad READ THE HUGE EMAIL THAT I SENT POINTING OUT ALL THOSE MOVES ALONG THE WAY.... All you had to do was say "Look we cant do that but we do want to keep your custom, so here is a good will gesture of whatever".

It's standard business tactics and helps you keep customers instead of losing them plus getting a bad name by other magicians hearing about how Ellusionist handles things.

I'd say something if I was a new customer and I tried this with my first order, but I wasn't. The bottom line in any business is ensuring the customer is happy, it's what every company I ever worked for stood for. But what Ellusionist did was, made numerous mistakes and thought a half hearted sorry was enough to cover everything up, Ellusionist were happy to leave it there and hoped the customer would PFO (look that one up as I dont want to be rude as stated in your email).

And thank you for telling me "this ends now".... But for me it doesn't. Until I hear from Brad personally. I will email Ellusionist EVERY SINGLE DAY. If you don't think I mean that, try me. Block my email address and I will call every day.

Also, another customer service tip for you.... Don't make things personal? Starting with the whole "Excuse me?"... Not great when things have gone so wrong so far. It doesn't look good for the company for which you are the face of. I wasn't being rude to anyone in particular as I had no idea who would be reading this email since nobody is willing to sign their names at the end which in itself is a joke.

Looking forward to hearing from Brad.

The saga continues.

It seems to me, I didn't read all the emails, that you were the antagonist in this situation and some of those were quite nasty emails. I may be mistaken but it seems as if you were quite mean to those customer service representatives. Magic is funny that way, you don't generally get refunds after you learn the secret. If you're not happy with the product tough luck.

You seemed to redeem yourself in the letter after "this ends here" until .

I will email Ellusionist EVERY SINGLE DAY. If you don't think I mean that, try me. Block my email address and I will call every day.

Also, another customer service tip for you.... Don't make things personal? Starting with the whole "Excuse me?"... Not great when things have gone so wrong so far. It doesn't look good for the company for which you are the face of. I wasn't being rude to anyone in particular as I had no idea who would be reading this email since nobody is willing to sign their names at the end which in itself is a joke.

Why?

They happily replied saying Brad whoever will not directly respond to your emails and you persist to ask that which they already explained cannot be accomplished.

Back to my initial question after the quote Why?

-Ian (I signed my name just in case )

I don't know anything about USA law. I know precious little about UK law, but I don't think that the UK local authority trading standards would really accept the "we are selling a secret" argument if the product was not of merchantable quality (which probably includes something that breaks easily with reasonable use).

I wonder if there is any case history of people successfully challenging this?

In all fairness, it does look to me like you've overreacted.

Yes, the emails you received were curt and devoid of 'niceties', but that's the way a great many people approach email. It bugs me too, but the people that send these curt messages are genuinely unaware that they're interpreted as rude.

The story as I understood it is that:

They agreed to a return of the product
(Remember that if they had an open door policy on this for every item, there'd be a lot of bedroom magicians sending back each and every trick after discovering the method and realising they'll have to put time and effort in to make it work)

They don't have a store credit system
(That's a software issue to do with the online store, and if the feature isn't there, it isn't there)

They issued a refund to your card rather than sending out the requested substitutes
(Your issue wasn't ignored. You haven't been fleeced, and you're free to buy the Garcia products anywhere you like. Technically, that's their loss).

They neglected to inform you of the refund.
(I can understand that you would then be unaware that any action has taken place on the issue, but now that you are, you'll see that you haven't been fleeced by Ellusionist).

I hardly think this merits a full-on onslaught or this kind of drubbing on internet messageboards.

But, as Ian states, you're coming across as the antagonist in this situation.

Sorry for not taking your side, but I do think you've read bad attitude into emails where there was none, and taken issue with simple mistakes that have actually worked in your favour.

Had you been ignored outright, or kept waiting weeks for your orders to be delivered, you'd have genuine cause for complaint.

Pete

Hy

Ok, it looks like this medalion has two sides. But this is generaly what i think:

They didn't sign thier emails. That's an unpersonell and wrong thing to do. I studdied marketing on school so i know. But hey... if that's tier way of working then that's thier problem.
They offered you a refund on a product that you normaly don't get a refund for. That's a very friendly thing to do for a long time costumor. It show's that they respect you as a costomur and they want to keep you happy and spending your money on that website.
The fact that they refunded you the money instead of sending you the dvd's. Could be a mistake, could be on purpose. We don't know, but who cares anyway? You got your money back and the main thing is. They give you the choise of buying those dvd's at ellusionist or somewere else. And that's 'in this case' a good thing.

I generaly think you overdid it a bit with those mad emails. they made some mistakes but they are all human. Be happy with your money, and keep doing magic.

Greetings from Belgium
(Henrik Hertogs) just in case

I generally agree with the above comments. I come away with a decent impression of their customer service. It seems to me that you went into the exchange frustrated with the products (for good reason!) but that you then channeled your frustration into anger towards the well-meaning customer service reps (who do, after all, have to not get scammed themselves.)

E-mail is funny that way -- you can read it as being written in whatever tone or mood you might be prejudiced toward.

Here in the UK, if you buy a product that is "not as advertised", "unfit for purpose" or "not of merchantable quality", you have a right as the consumer to a refund, credit note or exchange - your choice, not the vendor. That's all set down in the Sale of Goods Act (as amended). There are some other rules about distance selling too, but I'm not familiar with them.

If this is a UK seller, their argument that selling a secret precludes you from getting a refund wouldn't work.

Even so, faulty product or not, they held up their end of the bargain and gave you your money back. I think Ellusionist have done more than many online vendors would.

The best approach with angry emails in my experience is to click "save draft" instead of "send" and wait until I calm down a bit. There have been any number of occasions where I've deleted the original and started with something more polite.