talkmagic.co.uk

Hi all,

I know I'll probably regret asking this, but after reading about different stacked decks (Si Stebbins, Eight Kings, Mnemonica, Osterlind etc.), I'm more confused than enlightened, sort of.

It seems, each system has fans and those who wonder why stacked decks are used at all. After seeing Osterlind perform a great effect (the name of which escapes me) a while ago, I learned the Eight Kings, which took me less than an hour to be able to use without errors. It's dead easy to pick up and good fun to play with.

So, if I were to go for some effects which require a stack, do I need to learn several methods, or will most effects of this nature work with pretty much any? What are the advantages and disadvantages of one over another? Or, are these stupid noob questions that don't have a straight answer?!

I'm just curious because I love the idea of using a memory system or mnemonics in conjunction with an effect. I would like to know whether they're all worth learning or I could do with just the one/two?

Cheers muchly,
Wishmaster

Someone much more learned in the ways of stacked decks *cough*Tomo*cough* may be able to provide more insight than me but personally I've always liked a collection of them.

Si Stebbins is great but if you need to spread the cards then you're up a certain creek without a certain wooden implement.

Osterlind's Breakhrough Card System is marvellous and doesn't look anything like a stack. Not really an on the spot stack though. Anyone who has this knows what I mean.

Andrew Mayne's Zero Memorised deck is great for on the spot stuff if you just have a minute or two to set up (or less actually!) but then it's very limited in what it can do.

8 kings is good too... there's certainly a brilliant effect in Corinda that utilises it...




So in answer to your original question...
The best thing to do with stacks, in my opinion, is to learn a stack (pardon the pun) of them!
Then break out each one as and when it's needed.
(I permanently have a Breakthrough set-up deck to hand for a blackjack routine and always make sure to riffle a Si Stebbins twice after I've used it)

The more stacks you have under your belt, the less time you'll worry about which one is best and just use each one for each occasion.

i'd say start off with si stebbins...get used to that...

see what else you can apply it too...

then i'd say, personally, find one that like and feel comfy with - and mix it with a marked deck....

mick ayres has a nice stacked deck...i use lewis jones one personally...

i've probably not helped much!

I like Osterlind's Breakthrough Card System the best. You can get the PDF for around a tenner from his website. The Nikola Card System is pretty good, too. Again, it is found in the inexpensive Encyclopedia of Card Tricks. Oh, and Doug Dyment's QuickStack is quite nice.

I'm not being very helpful, am I? Sorry. My mind is a jumble at the moment.

EckoZero wrote:Si Stebbins is great but if you need to spread the cards then you're up a certain creek without a certain wooden implement.

8 kings is good too... there's certainly a brilliant effect in Corinda that utilises it...

Sorry about all the snips EckoZero, but these two comments sum up perfectly what I'm on about... Would the Corinda effect work with Si Stebbins? If so, why bother learning two? If not, I'm then going to assume this principle goes for many other effects too. I don't mind learning a few.

IAIN wrote:i'd say start off with si stebbins...get used to that...

see what else you can apply it too...

then i'd say, personally, find one that like and feel comfy with - and mix it with a marked deck....

mick ayres has a nice stacked deck...i use lewis jones one personally...

i've probably not helped much!

You have helped. Si Stebbins is one most people seem to mention a lot, and the Mick Ayres and Lewis Jones are new ones on me, so I'll look them up.

Wishmaster wrote:

EckoZero wrote:Si Stebbins is great but if you need to spread the cards then you're up a certain creek without a certain wooden implement.

8 kings is good too... there's certainly a brilliant effect in Corinda that utilises it...

Sorry about all the snips EckoZero, but these two comments sum up perfectly what I'm on about... Would the Corinda effect work with Si Stebbins? If so, why bother learning two? If not, I'm then going to assume this principle goes for many other effects too. I don't mind learning a few.

Well, Si Stebbins is a full deck stack, so is Osterlind's.
Eight kings isn't, neither is Mayne's Zero Memorised deck.

The effect in Corinda would work with any stacked deck, but Osterlind's gambling routine for example wouldn't.

As I say, they all have their uses and I've personally found that having knowledge of a few of them means I always have the right stack

http://www.deceptionary.com/aboutstacks.html

Check out that link, tonnes of info on all sort of stacks.

EckoZero wrote:
Osterlind's Breakhrough Card System is marvellous and doesn't look anything like a stack. Not really an on the spot stack though. Anyone who has this knows what I mean.

Not that I've tried it, but any random-looking stack such as the BCS can be set up, in a borrowed pack if necessary, as part of the act. It's the final effect ("A Subtle Game") in the Nikola chapter/booklet.

Barry

I have honestly never had a problem using a Si Stebbins stack. I charlier the hell out of it without looking, and that satisfies the specs that it's randomised.

I recently attended a lecture by Steve Beam and he used a Si Stebbins and you'd have never known he was using anything but a regular deck.

I know that's the point but I recommend that you take a look at some of his books.

I use Mnemonica, but primarily because you can faro to the stack from new deck order. I'd originally learnt Nikola but got fed up of stacking the deck a card at a time.

Full stacks tend to be designed by card magicians who want certain things out of it, such as gambling demonstrations; to that end you may be better off working out what you want from a stack and then designing it yourself.

Mnemonica is interesting because the ease of stacking it was one of the primary requirements, so the gambling demos and Mnemonica-specific effects were "discovered" rather than hard wired into the card order (they involve moving one or two cards out of stack order before making deals). The book covers a history of stacks, and lots of stack-nonspecific advice and tips on things like getting to stack order on the fly, or how to routine stack effects in your card work.

Mnemonica all the way for me. Because it's a memorized stack (rather than just a stack) you know the position of every card. But it's lots of work. If you don't fancy that I'd say Osterlind.

There's so much to learn from this thread, thank you all for the replies.

I really got a lot out of the article on deceptionary.com too, so cheers to Lenoir for that resource, it helps a lot.

As I already know Eight Kings pretty well now, I'm going to work through Si Stebbins next. They seem very similar in some ways from the descriptions, but I want to work out how they differ for myself. Maybe that alone will help answer my questions.

Mnemonica is really tempting because of the book being so cheap at the moment. I'm conscious of having only recently started out and am way below that level. However, it would also be good to have that as a target, so I might invest and leave it on my shelf for the future.

I'm definitely going to buy a copy of Richard Osterlind's system in the next day or two. I have some of his DVD's and really like his work. He's a great performer and all the more so because he keeps things simple, but very effective and strong for the audience (even if they are L&L). If his stack is as good as the rest of what I've seen of him, I'll be happy.

Once again, I really appreciate your help.

Cheers,
Wishmaster

I use Si Stebbing and the eight kings. I have a sentimental attachment to the eight kings, because I learnt it when I was seven or eight. EckoZero wrote that the eight kings stack is not a full deck stack, but as far as I am aware it is. I can do everything with the eight kings that I can do with Si Stebbins. To be honest, unless you are really going to specialise in these sorts of effects, then learn Si Stebbins and be done with it.