talkmagic.co.uk

now, now boys, let's not get silly

How much is real? How much can one do? Define magic...

the other thing to think about is - none of you magic guys should want it to appear "real" surely?

you dont want to give people the false-belief system that what you are doing is against the very laws of nature surely? you dont want people to think you can push a coin through a table...you dont want a card to jump to your wallet...

if you could do that, and convince people that it was real, then...where would we all be, eh?

you magic guys should start off with a disclaimer, that its all done with gimmicks and sleight of hand...just in case you change a punter's belief system with your crazy "magic"...

sorry - just giving the magician a bit of stick, the same as us mentalists have to put up with...

IAIN wrote:the other thing to think about is - none of you magic guys should want it to appear "real" surely?

you dont want to give people the false-belief system that what you are doing is against the very laws of nature surely? you dont want people to think you can push a coin through a table...you dont want a card to jump to your wallet...

if you could do that, and convince people that it was real, then...where would we all be, eh?

you magic guys should start off with a disclaimer, that its all done with gimmicks and sleight of hand...just in case you change a punter's belief system with your crazy "magic"...

sorry - just giving the magician a bit of stick, the same as us mentalists have to put up with...

Don't agrea. We always try to make our spectators belief that it's real magic that we do. That give's the extra dimention to the whole magic concept. When i put a coin trough a bottle i want people to think i actualty did that. I even know some people who are litterly scared of me. I LIKE IT.


Greetings from Belgium

It's funny how this discussion is turning out.

With reference to Iain and Famuus's posts immediately above...my wife is familiar with hypnosis and some NLP, as I've trained in both and bang on about hypnosis whenever I get the opportunity. When we've watched Derren Brown on TV or live, she always comes out with the same comments at the end... "He's brilliant, but quite a scary guy". She finds what he does slightly disturbing. She knows he uses various techniques, such as hypnosis to perform, yet there's a part of her which really believes that what he does is so powerful that he really can "make" people do anything he wishes. I would argue that he's aiming for just such a reaction, if not all the time, at least with some of his routines. We've had endless discussions about it and she remains absolutely convinced.

This is related to the divide there seems to be between the mentalists and magicians and even within those two camps, people frequently disagree. Is magic just sleights and misdirection? Should it be sold as simply as that? Do mentalists have higher powers? Can they mind read or are they just conmen (and women!)? Should they encourage and foster one belief or another? I know some will disagree with me, but to break down magic effects into a sleight or move or whatever, ruins the magic. It defeats the object. I know some learn purely for the skill factor, but I'm talking here about performers. Likewise, if I perform as a mentalist, I'd be unhappy with having a label of conman or trickster stuck on me because again, that dilutes and weakens what I'd be aiming for.

Do you, as performers, lose sight of what it's all about? Can you no longer enjoy magic or mentalism as something truly special and mysterious because you are no longer capable of pretending it's all real and simply see trickery of some kind? I'd be very sad and disappointed to lose the magic feeling of the hairs standing on the back of my neck when I see a true magician or mind reader using their art and skill to amaze me.

To me, it all boils down to what the individual performer wants as an end result. If they have managed to sell themselves well enough to the public that people, as my wife in the case of Mr Brown, believes the hype, then surely that's the important thing? It's a performance, for entertainment, to mystify, to show off, to frighten, amuse and many other things.

And no, I haven't been doing this for 40yrs. BUT, that doesn't mean I cannot have a valid opinion or am automatically wrong, even if I am!

Just my 2p worth

Wishmaster wrote:It's funny how this discussion is turning out.

With reference to Iain and Famuus's posts immediately above...my wife is familiar with hypnosis and some NLP, as I've trained in both and bang on about hypnosis whenever I get the opportunity. When we've watched Derren Brown on TV or live, she always comes out with the same comments at the end... "He's brilliant, but quite a scary guy". She finds what he does slightly disturbing. She knows he uses various techniques, such as hypnosis to perform, yet there's a part of her which really believes that what he does is so powerful that he really can "make" people do anything he wishes. I would argue that he's aiming for just such a reaction, if not all the time, at least with some of his routines. We've had endless discussions about it and she remains absolutely convinced.

This is related to the divide there seems to be between the mentalists and magicians and even within those two camps, people frequently disagree. Is magic just sleights and misdirection? Should it be sold as simply as that? Do mentalists have higher powers? Can they mind read or are they just conmen (and women!)? Should they encourage and foster one belief or another? I know some will disagree with me, but to break down magic effects into a sleight or move or whatever, ruins the magic. It defeats the object. I know some learn purely for the skill factor, but I'm talking here about performers. Likewise, if I perform as a mentalist, I'd be unhappy with having a label of conman or trickster stuck on me because again, that dilutes and weakens what I'd be aiming for.

Do you, as performers, lose sight of what it's all about? Can you no longer enjoy magic or mentalism as something truly special and mysterious because you are no longer capable of pretending it's all real and simply see trickery of some kind? I'd be very sad and disappointed to lose the magic feeling of the hairs standing on the back of my neck when I see a true magician or mind reader using their art and skill to amaze me.

To me, it all boils down to what the individual performer wants as an end result. If they have managed to sell themselves well enough to the public that people, as my wife in the case of Mr Brown, believes the hype, then surely that's the important thing? It's a performance, for entertainment, to mystify, to show off, to frighten, amuse and many other things.

And no, I haven't been doing this for 40yrs. BUT, that doesn't mean I cannot have a valid opinion or am automatically wrong, even if I am!

Just my 2p worth

Guess that's what i was trying to say, but then longer !!! lol

greetings from Belgium

i think famuus may have missed the point of my post...

i was merely showing how the so called divide between magic and mentalism isnt that great at times...

the majority of people want people to believe in magic for that time they are together...the same as the majority of mentalists want (or should) want people to believe in what they are doing...

however, i know of at least...ooooh...one person who doesnt even want to use the word magic in their work and to say its "just" sleight of hand...

magicians use "tricks" instead of "experiments", tricks inherently explains what happens...some form of subtefuge at hand...

i think the dividing line is smaller than most think...for the majority anyway...even derren wants you to believe in what he's doing, otherwise - he wouldnt "show" you the process he's going through...

and he even says in the devil's dvd that you truly have to believe that you're doing "it" at the time...

so, within my framework - it IS real...i am happy enough to explain what psychic means to me - and challenge the hollywood concept of it...

language is there to be used, and occassionally used to your own advantage...

do magicians just do trick? do they work their magic? are they just show offs with lack of real social graces?

do mentalists just do tricks with more bulls**t added? do they read thoughts and body language? are they just show offs with lack of real social graces and pointy beards and/or glasses?

Famuus wrote:Guess that's what i was trying to say, but then longer !!! lol

greetings from Belgium

Hehe, I was agreeing with you Famuus, but I talk too much!

I think theres a big difference here between tricks (card jumping to a pocket etc) and magic (anything alleged to exist that is not explainable by any present laws of science )....If anything(craig dont shoot me down) but mentalism is more like real magic than the magic we do...Like you say theres nothing particulary magic about making a card move around a deck its just clever trickery and manipulation....wereas reading someones mind etc seems to me much more like real Magick than anything magicians do...

Chris wrote:I think theres a big difference here between tricks (card jumping to a pocket etc) and magic (anything alleged to exist that is not explainable by any present laws of science )....If anything(craig dont shoot me down) but mentalism is more like real magic than the magic we do...Like you say theres nothing particulary magic about making a card move around a deck its just clever trickery and manipulation....wereas reading someones mind etc seems to me much more like real Magick than anything magicians do...

Hmm, I still don't see it like that Chris. I honestly think you are selling yourself short.

My whole point is: You're looking at this through the eyes of someone who knows the "secret". Try putting yourself in the seat of a layman in the audience who has absolutely no idea. It doesn't matter whether it's cards, coins, foam balls or mind reading. If it's done well, the amazement will be the same. Think about something as simple as controlling a card from say top to bottom. A spec doesn't know the terms, the techniques and is a blank canvas as far as the method is concerned. ALL they see is that a card they thought was in one place, suddenly moves to somewhere else. They don't see it happen and the mind cannot compute that action because logically, it's impossible. BECAUSE they are unaware of the methods, they cannot fill that gap and that is why the reaction can be so strong. It's STILL as magical as someone doing a prediction as part of their mentalism routine imho.

I agree with Chris. With magic there has to be a suspension of belief. With mentalism there's a lot more emphasis on 'how' the effect is achieved. This, to some people, makes it something other than magic.

This is why lots of people think Derren Brown uses lots of hypnotism, NLP etc. to do what he does. They ignore the hint in his pre-show disclaimer, which actually states that he uses magic.

You're looking at this through the eyes of someone who knows the "secret".

No Im not...like the origianl post started...if we could do real magic who the heck would want to make a sodding card move about...yawn when u cud produce small miracles of real magic...you missed my point old friend.

Chris wrote:No Im not...like the origianl post started...if we could do real magic who the heck would want to make a sodding card move about...yawn when u cud produce small miracles of real magic...you missed my point old friend.

It's not the first and won't be the last time! My apologies for misunderstanding. It's the way the thread went off at a bit of a tangent that threw me. Sorry

May I suggest you to watch this movie... It has some elements of answer.
And suspension of disbelieve is at the core of my magic for years now...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwas



http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=IN&hl=e ... 8f6SxNdVys