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IanKendall wrote:I just stumbled on this thread.

The Ghost count was originally described as being done from a deep grip in Elmsley's Four Card Trick manuscript.

Which might explain why I don't have the problems some people seem to have encountered!

This is in referance to the elmsley & twisted sister.

Like a lot of people I also have trouble with the elmsley count. I can do it 9/10 but of course that ain't good enough as a slight c**k up during the count & the whole trick is blown.

My problem is mainly the cards splitting once in the left hand, one possible solution I've come up with is to use roughing fluid.

Has anyone else tried this, does it help. Thought I'd ask before I get spraying on my queens!

A bit of magicians wax or even a bit of moisture (saliva?) on the card can keep them together whilst you perfect your elmsley count. THough this can only be done if you need to do only one E.C for the trick.

Johnny -

When you say the cards split 'once they are in the left hand', do you mean that you are counting the cards from your right hand into your left, or do you mean during the pinch action?

There are two solutions to the different scenarios;

1. If the cards are splitting in the _recieving_ hand you have two options. If you are doing a deep count, the fingers of the hand encase the cards in a loose mechanic's grip. In this position it is easy to keep the cards aligned simply by using the fingers along the long edge. If you are doing a fingertip count the answer is to _never_ move the fingers of the recieving hand (which is the correct method). The cards are placed and removed entirely by subtle pressures from the delivering hand's index finger.

2. If the cards are separating during the pinch, you need to make sure that the pad of the thumb stays mainly on the index finger, which just a very small contact with the edge of the packets. The index finger of the delivering hand does not move at this point.

Hope that helps. Just as a matter of interest, how many people would be interested in a detailed lesson on four different handlings on the Ghost count?

Take care, Ian

how many people would be interested in a detailed lesson on four different handlings on the Ghost count?

You could put my name down for starters.

Just as a matter of interest, how many people would be interested in a detailed lesson on four different handlings on the Ghost count?

From the number of times the topic comes up here, and the number of Elmsley Count specific questions that gets asked, I would say it would be very popular indeed.

Are you talking about selling it, or posting it in our new file sharing tutorial section?

It could be both - I'm thinking about doing a CD along the lines of Basic Coin Magic, but for cards (I've just finished the new one on false dealing, so I need a new project!) so it would probably be commercial, either as part of a CD or as a download. The trouble is that it takes a lot of work to put together a fifteen or twenty minute lesson on video (which is how long it is looking to be - there's a bit of detail involved!). To have it small enough to fit on a forum there would be a compromise on video quality and depth of instruction.

But I could do a short lesson as a demo...

I'll look into it

Take care, Ian

Hi there,

A lesson on these counts would be excellent!

I'd be very interested!

Thanks!

I too would be interested in it. I have the technique sorted theoretically, it would just help to see it done properly so I can see where my failings are.

Please add me to your list of contacts to contact if you get this demo video together.
Now as post aren't meant to be one sentence long I shall just remind you all that Dr Who is back on TV next month.

If you want to know about tricks using Emsley Count . Here it is:
Emsley Count Routine -
twisting the aces
re-turn of the kings
twisting the aces
jazz aces
reset
Maxi Twist, Twist by Dan Fleshman (1 of my faves)
Trick Kards by Nick Trost (which is a twisting the aces effect)
Twisted Sisters NFW, Ungimmicked NFW
Twisting Reset by Arnaud Chevrier.
Elevator Card
Sam Schwartz Back Flip.
Jay Blank Blast.
classic Oil and Water
Bodyguards by Jay Sankey.
The Biddle Trick
Rainbow Cascade
Queens Out of Control by Gerry Griffin
Gypsy Curse
MacDonald's Aces
The four card trick
jumping gemini
the mexican revolution
jaywalk

What you do is to do a search under card tricks - "the routine name" -free demo

Would love to see someone else doing the Elmsley count up close and in depth. Would alwys take note of a great offer like that! The Elmsley is tricky to learn from a book, so a video would be great!

I'm sure that most of us perform most sleights, but all in a slightly different way - so even us old dogs will be interested!

'You can't teach an old dog new tricks.....' RUBBISH !!!

I've only just noticed this thread but I thought I'd add some advice, that I just emailed to someone today, that helped me a lot.
In Twisting the Aces you're really doing two things at once during the count: a push-off and a steal. Learning the move is going to take some effort, but why make life harder than it needs to be? Break it down and learn it piece-by-piece. When first learning the count, instead of counting four cards and hiding the third a-la TtAs just count three cards and do a three-for-four count. This way you can concentrate on getting the steal right in isolation.
In fact, rather than TtAs I think a better routine to learn the ghost (Elmsley) count with is Your Signed Card (Hamman). (Sidenote: I always find practicing sleights on their pwn extremely dull. I always practice a routine). In this effect (at least in the handling on Ammar's EtMCM#4) the ghost count is used twice: once as a three-for-four and once as a four-for-five.
I confess that I'm not well-read enough to know for sure (I'm sure Ian can say for sure) but I suspect the original ghost count was only concerned with a steal and the push-off was added a later point to use the count to conceal a card/cards.
Anyway, once you've got the steal nice and smooth, without having to think too hard about it, then you're in a better position to throw the push-off into the mix and get them working in combination.
I hope this advice is useful to someone.

It's good to hear about your upcoming card CD Ian. If it's anything like as good as the Basic Coin CD it will be a fantastic buy.

Interestingly, in Vernon's Inner Card Trilogy the count is refered to as Elmsley's 'counting four as four' and is done at the finger tips in the way most people seem to do it today. This must have been fairly early on in the developement of the count I would think and is probably why so many people seem only to have seen the finger tip version, certainly ICT does not allude to it having been done in any other manner and seems to take it as read that most of the readers will already know it and perform it at the finger tips and it is just being explained for the few who don't.

I had never seen (and still haven't) any description of it deep in the hands when I learned it, but I felt that it wasn't quite right at the finger tips, it didn't fit the way I handled cards so developed my own version deep in the hands. It seems that lot's of people have taken this route since there are so many slightly different ways that people do it in the hands. Could someone who knows describe to me in PM Elmsley's original deep handling of the count?
Thanks

As regard practicing sleights I tend to take the opposite route to Charles Calthrop, if a routine I am learning contains a sleight I don't know I will drop the routine and learn the sleight in isolation until I have it to performance standard and have developed the appropriate muscle memory. That way when I come back to the trick I don't even have to think about the sleight, it just happens and I can concentrate on the performance of the routine. I have also had periods of learning sleights just for the sake of it, which may not be the best way to get the best effects into your routine as you tend to look for tricks to fit the slieght rather than methods of achieving the effect, however it does seem to make it easier to learn new stuff when you have to if you are already in the habit of learning.

I'll sign off there since I seem to have digressed to a completely different subject!

Nick

I have been re-reading the Elmsley Count and I have always done it (well tried to) at fingertips. Performing it deeper in your hand seems an interesting alternative.
Having made a google trawl of the interweb I found an article written by Aldo Colombili which explains his method that has the cards deep in his right hand. PM me for the URL. As it is on another sight I don't know what the copyright implications are of just pasting it into this post.