talkmagic.co.uk

Early on (back in the early 80s) I found NLP intriguing in that a couple of the guys from the Castle were taking classes on the "new" system and I was often an available practice dummy. As I progressed with both, study and experimentation I found that for starters, it's not some new beat all system, it is merely a focused aspect of known and rather well establish psychological techniques, much of which stems from Erickson but other influences can be seen as well.

I was one of the strongest supporters for the works of Rex Sykes, Kenton Knepper and Jay Tank as they brought these ideas to the fore; but even they have waned when it comes to support of such theory after many long years of questionable success in proving their claims. A condition that many others that were early on to this mode of study now seem to be juggling... my self included.

Richard Busch points out that every fool that can find the letters N, L, and P on their keyboard that's involved with magic, believes themselves capable of exploiting its principles and yet, one would be hard pressed to find a single soul that's taken the time to take the classes and invest into the practice time REQUIRED to just become half-way good at it.

More than anything NLP is the new lie within Mentalism, and in no small part, due to how Derren Brown has alluded to the idea that this is how he accomplishes certain things at the public level; an allusion we've bought into.

The development of one's linguistic and application of psychological manipulation methods is a MUST for anyone in this business, not just mentalists but especially so for them. These little bits of advantage can empower us in life, not just on stage. But the venture is one that's life-long, which demands that we seek out formal "hands on" training, even certification, if we are to be legitimate in our claims around this sort of theory... and that is all that NLP is, a THEORY.

All that I'm saying is that NLP is not the ultimate solution to effective mentalism... it's barely a practical, let alone "reliable" method, but it is a neat tool that can be set within the structure of what we do. But just like learning to Pencil Read or understand systems like FACS, it's a matter of constant as well as formal study/practice.

Woo so we have three groups of people in this thread.

1) Certified Hypnotists / Hypnotherapists / NLP Practitioners
2) Mentalists / Mental Magicians
3) Hypnosis Hobbiests / Hypnosis Laymen.

I fall into the first. That being said I have learned through a few years that it is not the "style" in which you use various hypnosis techniques or theories. It is the style in which the subject responds best.

Take a somnambulist you can use, NLP, Relaxation, Eye Fixation, Confusion Method, etc...

If you are dealing with a highly emotional intellectual your going to find NLP has a lot of traction in changing their perceptions / thought pattern.

If you are dealing with a highly physical and logical individual your NLP is going to get you more or less no where regardless of your skill.

Of course there aspects of every influencing technique that will get you somewhere with almost anyone. That is I imagine the value to mentalists in having the rapid fire rapid changing tool set with immediate feedback.

Hypnotherapy requires a vast array of hypnotic tools to get someone under short of the shock induction. I can tell you that most people will respond to a bit of any technique you use. Some will respond to none whats so ever.

So to those reading this, NLP is an interesting set of principals but it reads almost like Scientology. It has a whole slew of language designed specifically to let NLP people talk to each other in the super secret "code" of NLP.

Traditional hypnosis techniques use the language of psychology and are less sexy sounding but have very valid tools. The end result is its all about influence and how receptive the person you are working with is to that influence. NLP has one thing absolutely right and that's Rapport.

If you want to learn one thing from NLP its that.

--Infy

Infinite wrote:...

Great post Infy, very informative.
i disagree that NLP is a one trick pony with regards to rapport being the only decent technique to be learned from it, there is much more to it, however i do agree that it is not the be all end all. it is simply one tool. you dont use a screwdriver to bang a nail in the wall

Hellcat wrote:Great post Infy, very informative.
i disagree that NLP is a one trick pony with regards to rapport being the only decent technique to be learned from it, there is much more to it, however i do agree that it is not the be all end all. it is simply one tool. you dont use a screwdriver to bang a nail in the wall

Aha you are correct there is more there of course. My point was if you only learn one thing from NLP that is the one thing you SHOULD learn.

All the other things you can learn are useful as well within context but rapport is useful for anyone to know.

--Infy

ah ok, in that case i agree wholeheartedly
still stand by that recomendation of micheal brookes's book instant rapport too. good buy. got mine for about a fiver on amazon, well worth it.

Hello

NLP is a Meta discipline. The greatest misconception about this sort of technology is that it is your demonstratee’s subconscious willing to participate; unfortunately this is about as far from the truth as one can get.

* Richard Bandler and *John Grinder put together a technology model from the earliest model portrayed in *Fritz Perls work on the subject. Early on, Richard and John realized that the technology could be used in many applications, as it is a Meta discipline which can be applied to both mentalism and hypnosis demonstrations.

However the common miss-conception is that performers like *Derren Brown and other modern mentalism performers play on the common public’s lack of knowledge to exploit this system. NLP It is about how the brain works and language that effects on ones state of learning. It is an educational tool, which can be harnessed to educate your audience in a non conscious manner, enabling startling effect. This Meta discipline means it works wherever anyone has a brain; I like to refer to this as Persuasive Engineering something our good friend *Derren Brown is very good at.

The art of Persuasion and NLP have been blurred somewhat within the fields, my advice if you want to learn this area is to get some business based selling NLP books, they are a fantastic place to start getting to grips with NLP as an overall subject. (Amazon being the best place for this, or your local bookstore)

The deeper you go with the subject the more you can unravel and the better you will be able to manipulate your demonstratee. The worst thing is however, that most people have taken parts of the basic technology and mixed it with other disciplines, and call that NLP also.

I have had the pleasure to have been involved on a few previous NLP course for "selling better for you audience needs". It is one of these weekend sales courses that your bosses always seem to be obsessed with sending you one. However I have learnt some valid points to use in my mentalism theory and practice.

Much love and energy

tda

* http://www.richardbandler.com/
* http://www.johngrinder.com/
* http://www.gestalt.org/yontef.htm
* http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/

thedarkangel wrote:Hello

NLP is a Meta discipline. The greatest misconception about this sort of technology is that it is your demonstratee’s subconscious willing to participate; unfortunately this is about as far from the truth as one can get.

* Richard Bandler and *John Grinder put together a technology model from the earliest model portrayed in *Fritz Perls work on the subject. Early on, Richard and John realized that the technology could be used in many applications, as it is a Meta discipline which can be applied to both mentalism and hypnosis demonstrations.

However the common miss-conception is that performers like *Derren Brown and other modern mentalism performers play on the common public’s lack of knowledge to exploit this system. NLP It is about how the brain works and language that effects on ones state of learning. It is an educational tool, which can be harnessed to educate your audience in a non conscious manner, enabling startling effect. This Meta discipline means it works wherever anyone has a brain; I like to refer to this as Persuasive Engineering something our good friend *Derren Brown is very good at.

The art of Persuasion and NLP have been blurred somewhat within the fields, my advice if you want to learn this area is to get some business based selling NLP books, they are a fantastic place to start getting to grips with NLP as an overall subject. (Amazon being the best place for this, or your local bookstore)

The deeper you go with the subject the more you can unravel and the better you will be able to manipulate your demonstratee. The worst thing is however, that most people have taken parts of the basic technology and mixed it with other disciplines, and call that NLP also.

I have had the pleasure to have been involved on a few previous NLP course for "selling better for you audience needs". It is one of these weekend sales courses that your bosses always seem to be obsessed with sending you one. However I have learnt some valid points to use in my mentalism theory and practice.

Much love and energy

tda

* http://www.richardbandler.com/
* http://www.johngrinder.com/
* http://www.gestalt.org/yontef.htm
* http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/

Has there been any peer-reviewed, published research on NLP showing if it actually works or not?

Hello mrgoat

Unfortunately I do not know much about peer reviewing, I understand it is similar to refereeing the process of the subject at hand.

I believe that *Rightmove.co.uk offer a similar training course to their staff in regards to the housing market to see if various sectors of their job role are effective, by using an external peer group to evaluate them they can discover if their methodology works.

Peer reviews require a group of experts in that given field who are qualified and are able to construct the data with an impartial review; this process helps to fish out fake claims, rubbished interpretations, and personal views. Most physiological based literary that do not undergo a peer review are likely to be rubbished by professionals in that field.

The argument with NLP is very similar to that of hypnosis, as to its existence; however there is great proof to the fact that by influencing ones thought train or changing it can produce alarming results.

For example –
(and I like to experiment with this when I get the chance)

If you asked someone “would you like to go out for a meal?”

Then they have the question as an option…

If you asked “We are going for a meal, would you like to come!”

The subtle difference in the grammatical error is interpreted by the brain as a command, and the person will usually follow suit.

Give it a go (especially if you want to get an old friend out, who has not been out in a while).

Much love and energy

tda

*http://www.rightmove.co.uk/

mrgoat wrote:
Has there been any peer-reviewed, published research on NLP showing if it actually works or not?

As I said on page 4, this is a meaningless question. I can assure you that I have successfully used some NLP techniques on myself and with my hypnotherapy clients. I generally find that these techniques work better when combined with trance work, although that's not essential.

Barry

mrgoat wrote:Has there been any peer-reviewed, published research on NLP showing if it actually works or not?

There is not "it" in NLP.

magicofthemind wrote:

mrgoat wrote:
Has there been any peer-reviewed, published research on NLP showing if it actually works or not?

As I said on page 4, this is a meaningless question. I can assure you that I have successfully used some NLP techniques on myself and with my hypnotherapy clients. I generally find that these techniques work better when combined with trance work, although that's not essential.

Barry

So no actual research, that's been peer-reviewed and published in a respected journal then?

And I don't see how asking for evidence is meaningless. Could you explain how asking for some sort of research or proof before starting an alleged medical treatment is meaningless?

If it's medical, or theraputic, then it should be researched and proved that it works. Surely?

I looked on google and couldn't find anything.

Tomo wrote:

mrgoat wrote:Has there been any peer-reviewed, published research on NLP showing if it actually works or not?

There is not "it" in NLP.

Oh sorry, I can see how that would totally change my question. Let me rephrase:

Has NLP ever been researched to show efficacy, peer-reviewed and this research published in any medical/scientific journals?

I've been looking and can find no actual studies.

Thanks.

mrgoat wrote:Oh sorry, I can see how that would totally change my question. Let me rephrase:

Has NLP ever been researched to show efficacy, peer-reviewed and this research published in any medical/scientific journals?

I've been looking and can find no actual studies.

Thanks.

Well, it's a little bit like asking if "the paranormal" has ever been tested (contentious example, but I'm a bit busy). NLP is an equally amorphous term. Because it's a loosely defined collection of techniques, language patterns and other ideas, it makes more sense to focus on one of these and find out whether it's been tested in vitro.

Tomo wrote:

mrgoat wrote:Oh sorry, I can see how that would totally change my question. Let me rephrase:

Has NLP ever been researched to show efficacy, peer-reviewed and this research published in any medical/scientific journals?

I've been looking and can find no actual studies.

Thanks.

Well, it's a little bit like asking if "the paranormal" has ever been tested (contentious example, but I'm a bit busy). NLP is an equally amorphous term. Because it's a loosely defined collection of techniques, language patterns and other ideas, it makes more sense to focus on one of these and find out whether it's been tested in vitro.

Short answer: no.

Tomo wrote:Well, it's a little bit like asking if "the paranormal" has ever been tested

I'm sure it often has been and the results are always the same.