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I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on this...

I have recently undertaken the task of re-creating my current card set as I wasn't particularly happy with my previous one and just generally learned some new stuff.

I shan't go into an unreasonable amount of detail but one of the things that has made me slightly uncomfortable is the concept of revealing something that seems, to me anyway, inferior to what i started with.

In this case, I begin a trick with the four aces and after a typical "twisting/face down" sequence I end up with the four Queens. I then give the Queens to a spectator while I reveal the Queens in the deck, they are of course stunned to discover the aces in their shocked hands.

There is an obvious question, why not just start with the Queens first? And there is indeed an answer to that: because I use the aces from the very beginning and my opener is an ace-cutting trick. I have played around with the thought of cutting to the Queens but this seems even more inferior and can only be justified via weak excuses.

Is changing the four aces to four Queens amazing but illogical? Will my spectators care? I don't know but I care, and it just feels wrong to me. Any thoughts?

John Bannon has an effect in Smoke and Mirrors where he attempts to cut to an Ace, it turns out to be an Eight, tries to cut to another eight but it turns out to be a four, so he turns the other eight into a four...etc etc,

Until he puts the four cards in the spectators hands and the eventual four queens have transformed into the aces. Very clever, direct, makes sense and sounds similar.

I can see where your coming from. You introduce the Aces, then get rid of them, then they come back.
The end of the effect is weeker, because you have already introduced the aces into the mix.

Now...
you could introduce 4 other cards at the end, that might strengthen it a tad... however dont over look the fact that that final change happens IN THEIR HANDS.

Rather than changing the cards, concentrate on making that moment stronger. Analyze your timing at that point, and see if you can work out why they dont react as strongly as they should.

I know in the past, when chatting to Darren King about such things, ( mainly coin related) we have discovered that a tiny change in the timing of the reveal, can make a huge difference, even though technicaly you change nothing in the execution of the effect.

and....

I can show you where it neeeds work.

I then give the Queens to a spectator while I reveal the Queens in the deck, they are of course stunned to discover the aces in their shocked hands.

now if you miss time it, showing the queens in the deck before you have them turn over their cards, will make them suspect that you just have 4 more queens in the deck.
Likewise, if they see the queens, they could guess that they now hold the aces, ruining the surprise.
you need to absolutly hammer home to teh spectator that they hold the queens.
as you give the cards to them you MUST say...
Take the queens, hold onto the queens.. you have the queens.. In writing it might read odd, but Its a standard thing in mentalism, and indeed, it's something that was recently discussed in Kenton Keppers last mail shot.

now, you have verbaly reminded them over and over again that they now hold the queens. Then tell them to.. turn over their cards first.

they do, and they see aces....

and straight away you say.. That you couldnt of had the queens, because i have them... here.fanning out the deck, revealing the queens are now there.

In general if it feels wrong to you it is most definetly going to feel wrong to your audience. Your issue in part is the single biggest problem I have with performing card effects. Why on earth would I ask somebody to pick a card just so I can lose it in the deck only to find it again? Fear not I have the answer. Enterainment! Most of us take our magic way to seriously and start to overthink the simplest of things. Oddly your audience understands thats its just a trick and they are there to be entertained and are more accepting of that then you the magician.

I've also never understood the concept of most bill change routines. Here let me borrow a dollar. Whammo I've now turned it into a 10 dollar bill ha but I am a mean son of a b**** so I'm going to turn it back into a dollar and give it back to you. Makes no bloody sense yet the spectators are more then accepting of it. Why? they know its a trick they know the magician is out 9 bucks if we give them the 10, yet they are still amazed and amused. Nothing makes sense. It gets worse. All magic is like that. Why do you put birds in the box and then make them disapear...and then only to make them re-appear again. Why would you tie Knots in a rope only to have them undone? Why? Why? Why? Entertainment first folks.

Do you not have a layperson whose opinion you trust to tell you what they think?

Asking a bunch of magicians is helpful in some ways but harmful in others. We have no choice but to approach it from a magician's point of view.

I spent a good week or two figuring out a sexy new routine. Practiced it up. Showed it to Mrs Grimshaw. After the final ' kicker ', i looked to her for some kind of look of wonderment or shock. She just said ' Goes on a bit doesnt it? '

Know what? She was right. It did go on a bit. Bless her all to hell and back. I was too wrapped up in being clever and forgot to be entertaining.

daleshrimpton wrote:and....

I can show you where it neeeds work.

I then give the Queens to a spectator while I reveal the Queens in the deck, they are of course stunned to discover the aces in their shocked hands.

now if you miss time it, showing the queens in the deck before you have them turn over their cards, will make them suspect that you just have 4 more queens in the deck.
Likewise, if they see the queens, they could guess that they now hold the aces, ruining the surprise.
you need to absolutly hammer home to teh spectator that they hold the queens.
as you give the cards to them you MUST say...
Take the queens, hold onto the queens.. you have the queens.. In writing it might read odd, but Its a standard thing in mentalism, and indeed, it's something that was recently discussed in Kenton Keppers last mail shot.

now, you have verbaly reminded them over and over again that they now hold the queens. Then tell them to.. turn over their cards first.

they do, and they see aces....

and straight away you say.. That you couldnt of had the queens, because i have them... here.fanning out the deck, revealing the queens are now there.

All interesting points and thanks everyone for the input but I was actually thinking of revealing the Queens in my hands first and then pointing to them. The idea is for them to see four face down cards in my hand, that I keep referring to as the "lost" aces and when I suddenly turn them face up, they see Queens and are surprised by this. They then piece it all together and turn over their cards that they have been holding which are actually the aces.

A couple of other ideas i've come across are: Bill Malone's handling of the twisting plot which ends with the ace, two, three and four of spades. He then finds the aces afterwards. This however limits my handling to a table while previous versions allow for completely stand-up performance, a quality i appreciate during this particular set. I also end up with two four of a kinds in my version, which is a natural transition into other tricks involving the eight cards.

bmat wrote:In general if it feels wrong to you it is most definetly going to feel wrong to your audience. Your issue in part is the single biggest problem I have with performing card effects. Why on earth would I ask somebody to pick a card just so I can lose it in the deck only to find it again? Fear not I have the answer. Enterainment! Most of us take our magic way to seriously and start to overthink the simplest of things. Oddly your audience understands thats its just a trick and they are there to be entertained and are more accepting of that then you the magician.

I've also never understood the concept of most bill change routines. Here let me borrow a dollar. Whammo I've now turned it into a 10 dollar bill ha but I am a mean son of a b**** so I'm going to turn it back into a dollar and give it back to you. Makes no bloody sense yet the spectators are more then accepting of it. Why? they know its a trick they know the magician is out 9 bucks if we give them the 10, yet they are still amazed and amused. Nothing makes sense. It gets worse. All magic is like that. Why do you put birds in the box and then make them disapear...and then only to make them re-appear again. Why would you tie Knots in a rope only to have them undone? Why? Why? Why? Entertainment first folks.

Again, some good points although I have thought about this as well. Yet I firmly believe in a logical context when performing any magic and this slightly unfortunate habit leads me to seek out anything I find unreasonable and mould it towards something more straightforward and at the same time something that can be placed under scrutiny.

I want to create a context for the magic to happen in, as we all do, and for me picking cards out for me to find them is part of that very context. Of course people are aware that what we do is not actually real magic but mostly sleight of hand, and yet I feel it is about maintaining the finer points of this illusion during presentation and method that matters. The logic that applies outside of the magical context, still applies somewhat inside of it. Which is why it is a balance between the many levels presentation from the surreal to the very real that some magicians push further than others.

Again, I am aware of speaking as a magician about all this while my spectators are the other side of such talk but such illogical trifles will continue getting my attention until I resolve them so that I can safely testify to myself that I have achieved a subjective resolution.

Sounds ludicrous, yet it is merely the influence of other detail-obsessed magicians that prompt us to create smooth magic that we perform without thought and can further amplify the presentation.

dimabbq wrote:

bmat wrote:In general if it feels wrong to you it is most definetly going to feel wrong to your audience. Your issue in part is the single biggest problem I have with performing card effects. Why on earth would I ask somebody to pick a card just so I can lose it in the deck only to find it again? Fear not I have the answer. Enterainment! Most of us take our magic way to seriously and start to overthink the simplest of things. Oddly your audience understands thats its just a trick and they are there to be entertained and are more accepting of that then you the magician.

I've also never understood the concept of most bill change routines. Here let me borrow a dollar. Whammo I've now turned it into a 10 dollar bill ha but I am a mean son of a b**** so I'm going to turn it back into a dollar and give it back to you. Makes no bloody sense yet the spectators are more then accepting of it. Why? they know its a trick they know the magician is out 9 bucks if we give them the 10, yet they are still amazed and amused. Nothing makes sense. It gets worse. All magic is like that. Why do you put birds in the box and then make them disapear...and then only to make them re-appear again. Why would you tie Knots in a rope only to have them undone? Why? Why? Why? Entertainment first folks.

Again, some good points although I have thought about this as well. Yet I firmly believe in a logical context when performing any magic and this slightly unfortunate habit leads me to seek out anything I find unreasonable and mould it towards something more straightforward and at the same time something that can be placed under scrutiny.

I want to create a context for the magic to happen in, as we all do, and for me picking cards out for me to find them is part of that very context. Of course people are aware that what we do is not actually real magic but mostly sleight of hand, and yet I feel it is about maintaining the finer points of this illusion during presentation and method that matters. The logic that applies outside of the magical context, still applies somewhat inside of it. Which is why it is a balance between the many levels presentation from the surreal to the very real that some magicians push further than others.

Again, I am aware of speaking as a magician about all this while my spectators are the other side of such talk but such illogical trifles will continue getting my attention until I resolve them so that I can safely testify to myself that I have achieved a subjective resolution.

Sounds ludicrous, yet it is merely the influence of other detail-obsessed magicians that prompt us to create smooth magic that we perform without thought and can further amplify the presentation.

I absolutly agree. Life is in the details and there has to be some logic to it all and if you are uncomfortable or unhappy with the routine that feeling is going to be passed on to the spectator. I too have to put everything in context I am a firm believer that the goal of the magician is to create a sense of wonder (Doug Henning) and to do that one must create some sort of seamless world. The key in magic is to make sure every move and every item in play has to have some sort of purpose. An example for me would be an Okito box. I don't like the standard brass boxes as they have no revelance for me therefore they become a magic prop, (this is not true for everyone but it is for me). Instead I have a pewter okito box and the lid has a three dimensional dragon climbing out of the box. And I tell the tale of a dragon and his greed and how he hides the treasure...I won't bore you with the details but now I have a story to tell and a reason for the box to be there. Sure it's a magic prop, sure it looks like a magic prop and in context it is a magic prop and everyone knows it. But there is no gimmick, the audience handles it and it is never suspect because it is just part of a story.

one thing i try to do if I don't like how the trick feels I will modify the patter to help explain everything. But like every one has said so far, if it doesn't feel right to you it won't feel right to the audience. A good patter can help explain almost anything.

Kemo wrote:one thing i try to do if I don't like how the trick feels I will modify the patter to help explain everything. But like every one has said so far, if it doesn't feel right to you it won't feel right to the audience. A good patter can help explain almost anything.

It's a very good point and one I had earlier overlooked which now makes a whole lot of sense. Thanks everyone for your input.