talkmagic.co.uk

From the BBC: Websites 'breaking consumer laws'

Two-thirds (66%) failed to adequately explain that consumers had seven days to return a product bought over distance for a full refund and without giving a reason. Others failed to explain the right to have a faulty product repaired or replaced for at least two years after sale

I'm glad they explained that two thirds is 66%

Where a website "forgets" to explain that you have 7 days available to return the item for a refund, that "cooling off" period is automatically extended by law!

I think this is to a whopping 3 months... can somebody confirm?

Ted wrote:I'm glad they explained that two thirds is 66%

If you asked people to express two-thirds as a percentage, I think you'd be shocked at the results.

Everyone should have this website favouritised (I think I just made that word up)...

http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/

I've called them before and they are very helpful.

I used to own an old Sony TV (one of those CRT jobs) that I purchased from Sainsbury's a few years ago. After just under three years of use, it developed a fault. I called Sainsbury's and asked for a replacement; they said they didn't stock those TVs anymore and that I couldn't have a replacement. I asked for a refund. They said no. To cut a long story short, I explained that three years is not a reasonable lifespan for a TV and that they were legally obliged to give me a refund. After a few days of them trying to dodge their responsibilities (which included them trying to fob me off to Sony), they gave me a full refund.

There is an interesting clause in consumer rights which states that your purchase should be "FIT FOR PURPOSE". It is due to this clause that you may be entitled to a refund many years after your guarantee expires.

An example of this was a friend of mine who bought a Sony laptop from John Lewis. After 6 years the laptop stopped working!

He returned to JL and stated that his main reason for purchasing a Sony was their reliability and that he considered it should still be working after 6 years and therefore it was "not fit for purpose".

They did not refund him but did give him a credit for the entire purchase price, with which he was able to replace the laptop with a new model.

Nice result!

I buy all my electronic stuff from JL. They are the best when it comes to after sales care, not to mention having staff that actually know what they're talking about. (I know because I used to work for JL).

I've never owned a laptop that lasted more than about 3-4 years so I'm surprised that your friend got a credit note for the full amount. Saying that, though, I don't buy Sony products anymore because I have owned several Sony items in the past that proved very unreliable.

People don't complain enough in this country. I've disputed service charges in restaurants and not paid them because I've not received good, prompt service. I'm not a p*** taker, but I'm not paying for a service I never received. And don't even get me started on tips. Tim Roth/Mr. Orange in Reservoir Dogs = me.

I think this seven day refund thing is good for consumers, but I can see why a magic dealer in particular would not want to bring this to the attention of its customers. There will always be those people who order something just to find out the secret and then send it back for a refund. But I guess magic dealers would soon cotton onto this and could easily refuse to send future orders to those people.

I don't remember who was who in Reservoir Dogs but I am hoping that when you get bad service you don't cut the waiter's ear off etc....

Yes it is a shame that magic props don't have the same exemption as dvd sales (i.e. you open it, you must have seen it, you can't return it)... I tried explaining this to the trading standards folk when I used to trade... waste of time!

This is the problem (and strength apparently) of the law... that it doesn't take common sense into account!

Regarding my mate, he worked for CAB so I guess that gave him additional leveridge while complaining....

Replicant wrote:I think this seven day refund thing is good for consumers, but I can see why a magic dealer in particular would not want to bring this to the attention of its customers. There will always be those people who order something just to find out the secret and then send it back for a refund. But I guess magic dealers would soon cotton onto this and could easily refuse to send future orders to those people.

I was thinking the same thing.

It does mean that if you buy a trick in good faith, and then find that it does not provide the effect promised in the promotional material (and haven't we *all* been bitten at least once), you have some legal recourse.

Books, physical and electronic, are obviously very vulnerable to being copied, as well as ideas stolen from instruction leaflets, but do this more than once or twice and I'm sure the site will choose not to serve you, which is within its rights, I'd guess.

Ted, I think you're right. I believe a business can refuse to serve anyone for any reason, which is just as well for magic dealers. Having said that, there is a lot of rubbish out there and I think you could argue that some of it has very dubious promotional material associated with it, i.e. effect and/or method is not as described. But magic props is a very difficult area when it comes to this issue and I pity anyone who ever decides to take a magic-related issue to court.

While I'm on, it seems many people are not aware that service charges in restaurants are optional, not mandatory. If customers were a bit more selective about paying it, then perhaps more restaurants would get their act together. But why should they if people are happy to pay for bad service?

I think it's legal for sellers to refuse refunds of certain items if they make this clear at the time of purchase. Most high street shops won't allow returns of CDs, DVDs, and software, for instance. And places that offer monograms and the like won't take personalised things back.

This is assuming the object is fit for purpose, of course. Sellers always have to make good for faulty items -- although even then they can offer a replacement rather than a refund.

Your best security is to read websites' terms and conditions (rather than just ticking the box that says you read them).

Robbie wrote:I think it's legal for sellers to refuse refunds of certain items if they make this clear at the time of purchase.

Do you know which piece of legislation this is specified?

Ted wrote:

Robbie wrote:I think it's legal for sellers to refuse refunds of certain items if they make this clear at the time of purchase.

Do you know which piece of legislation this is specified?

No idea. I'm no lawyer. But I have seen plenty of shops making this condition, especially with CDs and DVDs. Let me look...

Ah! Here's a summary from Which:

- You always have a right to return faulty items, assuming you do so in good time. ("In good time" is more flexible than people think. For instance, if you buy a suitcase for a holiday in several weeks' time, and only notice something wrong when you use it, you're still "in good time".)

- If you buy in a real-life shop and then decide you don't want the item, or if they're not faulty but just unsuitable for your purpose, you have no automatic right of return. The store may or may not allow you to return it, and they may only give you a replacement or store credit, depending on their policy.

- If you buy at a distance (online or mail order) you're allowed a cooling-off period of seven days from receipt. However, you're not entitled to return disks (CDs, DVDs, software) if they've been opened, perishable items, or personalised/tailor-made items. (Unless they're faulty.)

I'm wondering whether, if a case went to court, it would be ruled that magic secrets were in the same category as CDs/DVDs -- i.e. you can't enjoy the use of them and then send them back. In which case sellers would have to seal up the tricks securely, with a telltale sticker or something, to prove they have or haven't been opened. A Ziploc baggie isn't proof of anything.

I'm sure I've seen terms and conditions in online shops saying essentially "Due to the nature of magic, we cannot offer refunds"... Yes, here's one from World of Magic:

We must advise that you be fully aware of the items that you wish to order, due to the nature of magic being secret we CANNOT offer any refund on an item after it has been shipped to a customer and opened or used! This does not apply if an item is found to be faulty or damaged. If an item is found to be faulty or damaged simply contact us for a returns number and we shall ship another item in replacement for you upon receipt of your returned item. It a replacemet item cannot be provided then we shall offer a full refund for the value of the item. All returned items must reach us within 14 days of the customer receiving the item, after this time no refund can be issued.

In accordance with UK law we do allow a cooling off period whereby orders may be cancelled witihin 14 days of an order being placed. In this case refunds will be issued providing that the items are returned to us in its origional un-used and un-opened state within 14 days of the order being placed.

So this place is definitely equating magic secrets with disks, in that they're non-refundable once opened. Whether this would stand up in court I don't know.

Robbie wrote:Ah! Here's a summary from Which:

...

- If you buy in a real-life shop and then decide you don't want the item, or if they're not faulty but just unsuitable for your purpose, you have no automatic right of return. The store may or may not allow you to return it, and they may only give you a replacement or store credit, depending on their policy.

- If you buy at a distance (online or mail order) you're allowed a cooling-off period of seven days from receipt. However, you're not entitled to return disks (CDs, DVDs, software) if they've been opened, perishable items, or personalised/tailor-made items. (Unless they're faulty.)

...

I'm sure I've seen terms and conditions in online shops saying essentially "Due to the nature of magic, we cannot offer refunds"... Yes, here's one from World of Magic:

Which! is not correct about a number of items there. The government's website has the following contradictory information:

What you are entitled to

Clear information about the goods or services offered before you buy.
Written confirmation of this information after you have made your purchase.
A 'cooling off' period during which an order can be cancelled without any reason and a full refund made.
A full refund if the goods or services are not provided by the date you agreed. If you didn't agree a date, then you are entitled to a refund if the goods or services are not provided within 30 days.
These rights apply to all forms of home shopping, not just internet sales. There are cases where these additional rights do not apply:

Financial services such as insurance or banking.

Online auctions. Be careful when buying at online auctions because auctioneers, unlike other sellers, can refuse to accept responsibility for the quality of the goods they auction. Read the conditions of sale with care. But, unless the seller is a private individual, the standard terms of the contract set out in the Unfair Terms In Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 still apply.

Vending machine purchases.

Contracts involving the sale of land.

For financial services you may have rights under the Financial Services (Distance Marketing) Regulations 2004.

Regarding a shop's published conditions, these hold no water if they contradict the law.

I think it's trading standards that get involved in these disputes, or you have to refer to a higher court of record. If the notices on the web sites bother you that much, complain to trading standards or the advertising standards agency and post their responses here, please.

But, all dealers are bound by the sale of goods act. Their stuff has to be fit for purpose and of merchantable quality and they can't wriggle out of their obligations.

The idea that a magic trick is composed of two parts, the intellectual property and the physical property isn't going to wash with any court (unless vendors start selling tricks that way, in which case I'll have a discount on the invosible deck please). that's why if you buy a faulty magic trick you are entitled to your money back.

I If you have enough time to practice your back palm them you've enough time to spend an pleasant afternoon watching a retailer squirm out of their legal obligations in the small claims court.

Are there any traders that have a reputation for not honouring shoppers' legal righs, rather than just posturing?