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I'd advise you not to try to clean them -- you could do a lot more harm than good. At most, just a gentle dusting over the outside with a soft cloth. Nobody's going to mind a bit of cupboard grime.

I'd stick with the idea of getting expert advice and then selling them. And I'd go to an auction house in the first instance, rather than a local firearms dealer. Most dealers are OK people, but they don't deal in antiques.

EDIT: These are the people who carry out arms and militaria valuations for Sotheby's: http://www.thomasdelmar.com/

MagicalSmithy wrote:Again I will work on the photos.....if I can not sus this out could someone that knows how pm a email address and i can send them photos (ofcourse only if they would not mind).

It's not difficult, really. Just follow the basic instructions in my last post and you cannot go wrong. It's foolproof.

Or, if you want, feel free to email the pics to me and I'll post them for you. nexus_sheep@yahoo.co.uk

Sorry about the delay in posting. I made the offer and then promptly forgot to check my email! Anyway, here you go...

I am no expert, but I think that the pistol is a Webley - one of the Bulldog type. Have a look at the examples on this page: http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/pistols/armpr.htm

There are a couple of revolvers about 60% of the way down that are very similar looking to yours, Smithy (including the rivets near the handle), although the pictures show ones with brown wooden handles, instead of white/cream. The oversized trigger is folded up in the pictures.

The long arm is much harder to identify, partly because I suspect the loading mechanism has been altered, to make it safe. I think you might need specialist help on that one.

Guns? Did someone mention my name?

I was raised around all sorts of guns (for some odd reason).

The Pistol was most likely property of someone of "rank" or prestige in that the white grips were considered a special luxury known only to VIP types. At first glance I thought it might be a 22 but when you show the size of those chambers, it's at least a 32 caliber or even 38 but dang if I'd want to shoot a 38 slug from such a small frame... I'd say it would burn a bit, not to mention the kick.

The "rifle" (and I say that hesitantly because it reminds me more of a shot gun or "hunter's" gun to be more accurate) I'd have to see the bore to know which but if it is a rifle I doubt that it was for any sort of long range, which brings me back to thinking it something used by farmers and hunters when dealing with game or defending the property. I also believe it to be an early version of a cartridge loader (what we now recognize as bullets or shells) rather than flint-lock... again, I couldn't make out the workings for the hammer section so I'm not positive.

Flint Locks, at least those here in the U.S., tend to have a much longer barrel. This was common with most military grade weapons of this sort, which is one of the reasons I keep coming back to this being non-military and something of personal use. Too, if it was military, you would find stamps in the stock and probably the barrel itself denoting such information.

Look along the barrels and see if you can find engraving... sometimes it will be near the stock or hand-grips. This will typically be a maker's mark along with a serial number or type number that can be researched. Too, you may want to take it to an arms expert from your area. Most veteran's groups have just such a person on hand but you can also look up area gun smiths or simply visit the war & veteran's museums, asking for assistance in said research. Another avenue but I don't know if you have the same show over there, is a group we call the History Detectives. It's a television show on PBS in which they take finds of your kind and do a rather in-depth background search around them. It's quite interesting, the things they uncover.

As to the legal possession of such items I'm not familiar with British law but I do know that most historic firearms must be rendered non-functional. This can be done in two ways; the removing of the firing pen or filling the barrel by no less than 2/3 with something like lead... I know that tends to be how many such items were treated here, with rare exceptions.

Sometimes, if you are a recognized collector of this sort of thing, you can legally preserve the authenticity of the item, including function. I'm not familiar with how regulations have changed on that front but I know my father had to comply on certain levels because of the older "museum" quality pieces we owned that were made in the Navoo, Ill. smith shop operated by Jonathan Browning, father to the lads that moved to Belgium to begin the big company... but they were Mormons and far, far removed from the Baptist side of the family

Craig Browning wrote:As to the legal possession of such items I'm not familiar with British law but I do know that most historic firearms must be rendered non-functional. This can be done in two ways; the removing of the firing pen or filling the barrel by no less than 2/3 with something like lead... I know that tends to be how many such items were treated here, with rare exceptions.

NO, no, no.

A firearm for which you cannot buy modern cartridge ammunition is considered a collector's piece for "curio or ornament". (There's no definition of "antique firearm" in law.) It does NOT have to be deactivated, and any attempts at deactivation will ruin its value.

You don't need a firearms certificate to keep collector's pieces, as long as you make no attempt to fire them.

Here are the guidelines describing firearms that will pretty much automatically come under the "curio or ornament" heading:
https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q316.htm

Some other firearms can be classified as collector's pieces on a case-by-case basis.

You cannot legally deactivate a firearm yourself, e.g. by pouring lead down the barrel. Most homemade "deactivations" can be readily reversed. Deactivation has to be done by a professional, and certified with a government mark:
https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q319.htm

As I said, I don't know UK laws

It's been many years since I've been around all of this stuff, it was more a matter of environment when growing up than anything so I was basing much on foggy recall. I did point out that there were some exceptions that preserved collector value. The gent that owns Napoleon's dueling guns probably wouldn't ever do anything to hurt them...

However, I do know that the removal of the firing pin is still encouraged when dealing with a modern weapon design such as those introduced by Browning, Remington and Winchester in the 19th century. More so, military grade weapons, which btw, are the one's most subjected to the barrel plugs but, according to my father, there are now plugs that do not damage the weapon that can be installed and removed by a gunsmith. I guess there's some kind of certification or official seal that goes with this but the purpose was to preserve historic value.

The big thing is public safety issues and with gun laws being as they are over here, some form of weapon security is required and most trigger locks will not work on the older weapons, nor does it insure against use.

The reason for this concern is two-fold; the biggest is the fact that antique weapons have a terrible records when it comes to blowing up in your face due to micro-fractures and brittleness in the stock assembly and in some instances, the manufacture of ammunition by the shooter.

The second reason centers on legal issues in which non-registered weapons and more so, weapons pre-dating the 1950s are more difficult to track and identify when used in crimes. Though the type of weapon might be identified it's difficult at best, to trace ownership IF the weapons does not belong to a known collector.

The big thing in the UK is knee-jerk fear reaction, which trumps any sensible public safety concern.

Following the Dunblane massacre, all handguns were banned (with the exception of collectors' pieces). Never mind the fact that the lunatic in question was provably unfit to own guns and should never have been given a firearms certificate in the first place.

The general consensus among pistol shooters is that the government had been wanting to ban private firearm ownership for quite a long time. Dunblane finally gave them the excuse they had been looking for.

Colin and I, like thousands of others, were happy and sane (well, reasonably sane) and perfectly law-abiding sport target shooters. We had our hobby taken away for no good reason.

The shooting fraternity is still extremely bitter about the ban. We're also bitter about the government's refusal to use Bisley as the Olympic shooting venue, as this would have led to permanent investment in Britain's premier range. Calls have gone out for all British shooters to refuse to help with the 2012 Olympics.

Sigh. I'll stop now before I depress myself.

I fully understand how you feel Robbie.

Conversely, we now have idiots trying to convince the world that they require fully automatic armor piercing rounds for shooting bambi...

I've never been much for hunting though I can and would if need be. I do love to shoot skeet and targets, could do it all day long if I had the chance. But sadly, gun laws tend to punish those of us that adhere to the law rather than the criminals that can always get their hands on a firearm of most any kind, no matter what the laws might be... kind of defeats the purpose, ya know.

I KNEW IT MR GRECKO FROM LATE NIGHT POKER IS BEPE FROM EASTENDERS.....um sorry watching poker while writing this.


The weapons have been passed onto a friend who one works with the armed police and two has a grade one fire arms license or what ever they are called untill we can decide what to do with them next...I believed it was the best thing to do untill we can decide where to move them...at a quick glance he said it would still fire and he would keep hold of it untill it was sold on to a collector with a license or it was blocked at which point he would return it to me, although I am welcome to handle it in his house when ever I wish.

MagicalSmithy wrote:The weapons have been passed onto a friend who one works with the armed police and two has a grade one fire arms license or what ever they are called untill we can decide what to do with them next...I believed it was the best thing to do untill we can decide where to move them...at a quick glance he said it would still fire and he would keep hold of it untill it was sold on to a collector with a license or it was blocked at which point he would return it to me, although I am welcome to handle it in his house when ever I wish.

Strictly, he's breaking the law over that last point. If a gun needs a firearms certificate, then allowing a non-FAC-holder to touch it (or even see it, or know where it's kept) is a no-no. He could even lose his FAC for doing so.

But what about farmes letting there friends shoot shot guns on their farms....from personnal experience I can guarantee you that not everyone that shoots from a farm has a valid shot gun license just the person who owns the weapon as i have seen many under 18s firing and you need to be 18 to have a full shot gun license because I applied for one a while back to legally own a working muzzle loading match lock/flint lock musket and was turned down on a basis of crime levels in my local town, even with a giant iron locker.

I ended up having to leav ethat re enactment as you cant be a 95th rifle withought a musket (lol rifles are harder to load on the field so they cheat) not a civil war musketeer without a musket and poweder license.

Shotgun licences are different from firearms certificates, and the requirements are less strict. I don't know anything about them.

Ah ok.

Well I doubt I will be going round there to play with a gun anyways it was just somehting that was said, if I wanted to look at it again thats fine (not saying I would know exactley where it is although you can not miss the giant bolted door at the back of the house.

It was just a matter of If I need to take pictures note marking etc for a potentioal buyer.