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Yo, I was wondering about mentalism trick when you doing a show on stage is it okey to put in some cards/coins tricks?

I know it sounds strange....

Up to you.

Do you want to be seen as a mentalist, or as a magician who also does mental magic.

Cards in themselves aren't a problem - it depends what you do with them, and there are many good mindreading effects that require a deck of cards.

But coins? Unless you're predicting the date on a coin, or the amount of loose change somebody has in their pocket, I'm not sure. Certainly, appearances, vanishes and transpositions don't fall within the remit of mentalism.

There's nothing to say that a magician can't do mindreading effects, but too much mainstream magic will kill the image of a 'serious' mentalist.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule, but the successful exceptions are are truly exceptional.

Pete

I agree. See what works the best for you and report back.

pcwells wrote:Up to you.

Do you want to be seen as a mentalist, or as a magician who also does mental magic.

Cards in themselves aren't a problem - it depends what you do with them, and there are many good mindreading effects that require a deck of cards.

But coins? Unless you're predicting the date on a coin, or the amount of loose change somebody has in their pocket, I'm not sure. Certainly, appearances, vanishes and transpositions don't fall within the remit of mentalism.

There's nothing to say that a magician can't do mindreading effects, but too much mainstream magic will kill the image of a 'serious' mentalist.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule, but the successful exceptions are are truly exceptional.

Pete

I dont know the name of the trick but I think its called "Heartbeat" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj3aTwCV ... re=related
like those kind of trick...

Yup, that's the way a simple card location can be presented as a mentalism or mental magic effect.

Nothing's vanished or gone up in flames, so you can go all out and sell the idea of pseudo-psychic (or pseudo-scientific) twaddle.

Pete

Traditionally speaking we have always had those that followed that "safe" course of commercial Mental Magic a.k.a. The Dunninger Mold. Nothing really wrong with it, but bookers and audiences alike view it for what it is, a Magic Show with a Psychic-like theme.

At the same time there has always been a very large second face to Mentalism that deliberately kept its distance (until recent years) from magic and magicians for two key reasons; to avoid the ridicule and arrogant acts of negative judgment and secondly, to protect their secrets. These are workers that deliberately walk a fine line between the thespian and charlatan worlds and one that I'm quite proud to say, I belong to. The exception being that today many of us also fall under the recently developed banner of Bizarre/Haunted Magick because so many forget that Hauntings, Seances, etc. were once key components to Mentalism but have been shoved to this side of things in the past decade. Like Mentalism however, there are a good number of variables as to what denotes true Bizarre Magick over the Paranormal styled work we tend to do.

Which one is "right"? depends 100% on which is more natural for you as a person -- which tends to be your penchant. I cannot go out and pull off what I'd call a solid Dunninger styled show. I've done them and had fun doing such, but it's really not where I excel and I know this. At the same time I know that fewer yet can do the "darker" more believable type of program and approach I tend to do. It's quite a difficult thing to do and do convincingly while retaining a semblance of honesty as well as respect for one's patrons.

Be it as it is though, I'm just an old Carney

Yeah its fine to do that its personal choice IMO

I think its called "Heartbeat" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj3aTwCV ... re=related

About that... is that a something like top/bottom card trick or is that some muscle reading thing?

Or both?

uchihaperi wrote:Yo, I was wondering about mentalism trick when you doing a show on stage is it okey to put in some cards/coins tricks?

I know it sounds strange....

QUESTION: Do you want to be a Mentalist or a Magician?

Commercially speaking "Mental Magic" is the more viable platform upon which to stand and by today's standards (what's best known as "The Dunninger Mold") it's perfectly fine to do whatever the hell you want so long as you can come up with the right lie. Frankly I'm quite shocked no one has attempted to explain how they can use their psychic-like abilities or NLP to pull of a Sub-Trunk or Zig Zag routine... but then I have heard of a PK Balloon Animal routine e.g. nothing's sacred.

On the other hand, if you wish to be a genuine Mentalist vs. a magician doing tricks that sortof look like mental prowess, I'd serious consider to NOT incorporate such items... at least not in the way most magicians would use them. There are some excellent ideas that come from both, the coin and card fields that can be successfully adapted to mentalism BUT, when possible find a way to replace the playing cards with an alternate such as postcards, photos, business cards, drawings, even Tarot type cards. The reason is quite logical; the typical layman associates playing cards with two "vocations" -- professional gambling and Magic. In either instance CHEATING and acts of manipulation are almost instantly applied to the equation.

I'm not saying that you can't use playing cards within mentalism, only that you should be very selective and strive to do demonstrations that hold to the old axiom of "How would this look if a real psychic were doing it?"

There are many Mentalism routines using coins, including some clever forces. Coins Across or Coins thru the Table however, do not fit said criteria, they are magic tricks.


When the public comes to watch a magic show they already know that it involves deception and trickery and simply accept such as fact, choosing to sit back and escape via said fantasy. On the other hand Mentalism (Mind Reading, as the typical lay person would view it) is something in which disbelief is suspended and the investment of belief REQUIRED by the performer in order to elicit the level of psychological involvement that is frequently required in knowing success. One side of this public investment centers on our gaining their personal desire to see our routines succeed. Because of this element we end up with an audience of people who will lean more towards cooperation and actual focus vs. the headaches our magician cousins frequently face when it comes to hecklers, etc.

With this in mind I believe it would make sense to most that mixing traditional magic routines with mentalism can rob the performer of such advantages. There are ways of accomplishing this but it is best to employ the types of Mental Magic bits that tend to look like a magician's trick rather than a mental miracle of some sort. A couple of prime examples would be Don Wayne's Dream Vision or Larry Becker's Casino Royale... both are awesome bits of ENTERTAINMENT but quite obviously tricks and not what one would readily view as genuine psi.

I hope this helps you weigh things a bit. I'm probably one of the few voices on this forum that's going to bring these facts up; even a couple of my contemporaries will present views that contrast with what I'm saying. But what I express stems from the older school and philosophic views around Mentalism in which one carefully treads a fine line between charlatanism and being a thespian.