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I have an upcoming show and I've encountered a problem.

I believe I'm over analyzing again and this always happens before each show I do but sometimes they turn out to be legitimate worries. So I think it's fair to ask and there's no harm in asking...

Anyways on to my question. For two of my effects (both original ) I have to force a particular item. However both are forced using svengali-esque index cards.

Does this come off as natural or out of the ordinary by riffling the index cards to have a spectator then stick their finger into the cards and that would be their selection(..hehe)?

Or does it appear natural to riffle index cards to have a spectator make a selection?

Finally if it's performed twice, does it arouse suspicion that it's a force?

Maybe it's me being paranoid but... I thought I'd ask....

You can get away with a fair bit when it comes to forces, I think.

I've done the backslip force two or three times in a row before and its never been suggested that I might be forcing the card. I think they want to believe that its a random selection, so they do believe it.

I'd go with it, don't second guess it. Know that it will work and it generally will.

Perhaps the spectator could cut the stock (instead of the riffle technique).

I'm with Steve on this one. Cutting is definitely a fairer way of forcing via Svengali.. Most lay people are subconsciously aware that cutting to a particular location is completely a free choice (and it is.. )

I've got a routine which has the specs cut to cards from 4 decks of index cards, they're all svengali type decks and I've never been questioned on it. If they're doing the cutting then it's got to be fair.

A testiment to how trusting specs can be with a force has to be the one way forcing deck.

There are some GREAT routines that use this deck and if you can get away using a one way deck, you're not going to get caught using another method if it's performed well.

Only one way to find out and that's to give it a go.

One thing - don't act like it's a massive deal. This is obviously a concern, and I can appreciate that, but spectators can smell tension like sharks can smell blood. In the last month I've probably performed for more people than I had in the five years before it, and while I'm absolutely not any kind of authority on magic, I've noticed that most spectators take practically all their cues from you. If you tense up, they do; if you relax, they follow suit (short of the baseline level of suspicion that they will feel when they know that something's about to supposedly break the laws of physics). Play the selection down as if it's the most inconsequential part of the trick and that it really doesn't matter what card they pick. I used to worry a lot about forces, until I started using the following phrase:

"Before we start, could you pick one out for me/say stop/touch the back of one of these for me, and make a note of it?"

The key phrase there being "before we start", and it has to be played way, way, way down. Darwin Ortiz made an excellent point in his book Designing Miracles about displacing time as far as the spectator's concerned. When they eventually try and track back and figure out how the trick was done, if you can get them to stop short of a pivotal moment - that happened outside of what they consider to be the timeframe for the trick - then you can get away with murder.

There is already some great advice on this thread. Having them choose a number and counting down to it is another option. The nature of your routine should dictate which is the best procedure for that particular effect.

It has been mentioned not to make a big deal out of the force, as far as the spectator is concerned, and this is one of the true secrets of any force. If a force is even suspected, the spectator will be awkward in their choice. You must appear to have the attitude that it doesnt matter which card/object is selected, and the audience will follow, convinced that their choice(s) have been free.

Your question about doing the same force twice is hard to answer. Technically speaking, you should really reserve a particular force for a particular trick, each effect having its own method. However, it is possible to use the same method more than once if you change the procedure - for instance cutting the first time and counting down the next. Even though you have used the same method the audience will see them as seperate because they appear so diffirent jim

jim ferguson wrote:However, it is possible to use the same method more than once if you change the procedure - for instance cutting the first time and counting down the next. Even though you have used the same method the audience will see them as seperate because they appear so diffirent jim

Too me that just makes things seem more suspisious. If you keep chopping and changing the way that you do things the audience are going to wonder why after having a spec cut the deck, you now want them to count down. I always do everything so that it looks the same, it looks more consistant. If I need a card fairly chosen, I'll make any forces look identical to each other and to the fair choice and never change them during the routine. People get used to seeing somthing done in a certain way, if you change that it looks odd and they'll notice.

Any force done well is not going create suspicion. It is usually the magi that creates the suspicion. I agree with Lady of Mystery, if you keep changing it up you will run into problems. If you are doing a card trick the spectators know they will have to pick a card, (in most cases anyway) it is the nature of the beast, so a force should be very off hand with no particular attention paid to it. If using a sven rather then have the spec put a finger in the deck, (I personally always found this odd in itself) just ask them to stay stop as you riffle through the deck. And don't concern yourself with anything more just continue on. I usually spread the cards from my right hand to my left and tell the spectator to grab a card, I don't wait I don't time anything I just stop at the force pull the spread apart at that point and put that last card in their hand, my off hand line is something like, 'doesn't matter which they are all different' and its all with a shrug of the shoulders type thing. Heck half the time I have a spectator sign the card so I go through all the motions of them choosing a card and then I just take it back look at it while I take out my trusty sharpie and go "nice card, three of hearts, sign here" The card has now become inconsequential, its just become a tool for the magic that is about to begin.

I hope you understand the jist of what I'm trying to say.

Lady of Mystery wrote:Too me that just makes things seem more suspisious. If you keep chopping and changing the way that you do things the audience are going to wonder why after having a spec cut the deck, you now want them to count down. I always do everything so that it looks the same, it looks more consistant. If I need a card fairly chosen, I'll make any forces look identical to each other and to the fair choice and never change them during the routine. People get used to seeing somthing done in a certain way, if you change that it looks odd and they'll notice.

Thats actually a very good point and Al Schneider had some exellent essays on his website which were along the same lines as your post. Im not sure if they are still on his site as he changes them often. If anyone hasnt visited his website id recommend it, some great thoughts, ideas and some moves.

I think it depends greatly which effects you are using the force for in the same set. The use of the force must be subtle. What i mean is, there are many effects where, when the audience thinks back, the only possible answer is a force. If you tell someone to take a card, then lift your shirt to reveal their chosen card tattoo'd round your belly button, what else would they think ? Alot of the gimmicked cards that seem so popular nowadays fall into this category aswell (fallen pips etc), and I believe any intelegent spectator will realise that you somehow made them pick that card. They may not know how you did it but they'll know you did. These sort of effects are normally played in a fun way and because of this the force usually goes unquestioned. To use the same force then in a more serious piece would not be a good idea.

There are many factors that need to be taken into account such as the actual effects, the way you perform the force, the time between the forces, context etc. There are also many effects that have their own special force (face-up, counting down, cutting etc) which could make it impossible to use the same force in your next piece. So to summarise, it all depends on the effects which the force is to be used. If any of the effects scream that it had to be a force then it should definetly not be used more than once in the same set. jim