talkmagic.co.uk

something thats been on my mind recently...

there was a thread about rubber cement on the cafe, someone said that they have trouble making a certain envelope, and wanted to know how long rubber cement will last on these envelopes...

i suggested he tried making more and watching, he may be heavy handed with the glue, he may not apply enough pressure - all kinds of variables...i said it not to be annoying, but genuinely to help...and

a) he'd get more used to making them, b) see how long they'd last in his house, due to humidity and storage c) i admit, i did think it was a bit of an inane question...

which lead me to think about how we help people on forums in general...

sometimes handing someone the answer straight, is genuinely the only answer, however - with the majority of questions, the answer really can be boiled down to "have you genuinely tried this out yourself first, and see how it works/plays for you..." before asking for the answer on a forum...

its like when people ask "whats the best...x/y/z" - which will give you as many answers as posters...

swamis/wallets/card brands/glue/envelopes/business card stock...the list goes on and on...

people forget that they are not considering theirs and others anomalies - hand size, performance style/ability, taste - all these things and many, many more go into making something 'the best' for one person...and absolute garbage for another...

I think you're right in many ways, Iain. Most answers on a forum are likely to be very subjective and posters are only ever going to suggest things that have worked for them.

However, isn't this the premise of a forum? To share our views with others and discuss accordingly? I think the onus is on the poster who is asking the questions to apply some common sense when reading the responses and realise that the only thing they're ever going to get are the opinions of others. Facts are harder to quantify in most cases

I do agree with your thinking on the whole though and for some reason the whole premise of forums sometimes reminds me of that great line in Fight Club when The Narrator is talking about the benefits of attending support groups for those with terminal illnesses:

"When people think you're dying, they really, really listen to you instead of just waiting for their turn to speak"


Sean

I think it depends very much on the question.

It can be very revealing to know other people's opinions and experiences - for example, I'd love to know which peek wallet you personally prefer at the moment (and why)... possibly even so far as to probe your thoughts on the handling and timing involved.

This doesn't mean that I would plan to run out, buy everything you thought was good, and use it in the fashion you describe... just that a dissenting opinion can help shift a few mental barricades.


On the other hand, there are many examples of laziness, and many questions that could really be better answered with a "here is where you'll find it out for yourself" (recent threads regarding 13 steps have plenty of that)

Good magic is an extremely personal learning experience - you have to work out, fundamentally, how you can convince others of things which are not true, or could never be true, however I'm sure you can understand the frustration of someone inexperienced who doesn't understand that yet.

You can imagine how they would expect you to know all of the answers, and if you know the answers, why can't you just tell him?

I think that sometimes when somebody asks a question, it can be better to just give them a straight answer. "Where can I find this" can sometimes be simply answered with "in here"

The annoying thing is when they keep asking questions that they can easily find the answer by searching for a basic review or, in some cases, read the blurb on the item in question!

Giving somebody a gentle nudge is one thing, but if you feed them every mouthful, when does it stop and they can stand on their own two feet? I had to learn the hard way, so they should too

Agreed, some questions to those of us who have done the leg work and come to our ownconclusions give them freely even though they wouldn't necesserily apply to others, but I would ask these questions of you if you were a friend sat next to me at the bar talking magic, that way you might say "whatever you do save yourself some time/money because x/y/z is only suited to so and so.
This doesn't mean I wont try that particular product or method but I may put it futher down the list; However even I, on occasion, have asked the forum as opposed to trawling through hundreds of search results.

The forum to me holds many functions firstly to keep me up to speed with exciting new developments/magicians/events but it also acts as my electronic mentor.

I live 2.5 hours drive from my nearest magic club so this is my closest resource to like minded folks.

Opinions are just those - opinions but as I read the various posts from the differing members I develop an understanding that some opinions are worth more than others.

I am modest enough to say that in the world of magic I have more to learn than to educate others on, but where what limited knowledge I have is asked for, I would gladly give it, if it encourages people to study this art futher.

I am also highly greatful for all the help and advice I have received from this forum.

long may it continue

jackleg wrote:Opinions are just those - opinions but as I read the various posts from the differing members I develop an understanding that some opinions are worth more than others.

I agree completely. Opinions are personal views on a subject, not the Law. But some people seem to know more about specific subjects than others! I would say that, generally speaking, the usual posters on this forum are both very knowledgeable and generous. It puts the occasional idiocy in the shade.

A good example is when peopel ask about making their own R&S decks. OK, it's easy to advise which kind of substance to use but how long to leave each coat for depends on lots of things outside our control. A nice warm spare room would mean a different time to a cold and draughty shed so there's always an element of learning by trial and error - usually a very good way of learning stuff I find!

yes.. but dont they hate it when you tell them to go out and buy one ready made.. like everybody else does

Some of the responses I get by PM are unbelievably ungrateful!

I believe a great majority of people are looking for validation when they ask questions on a forum, rather then actual answers or even to be shown the correct direction. The problem arises when somebody asks a question and the response doesn't really fit into what they wanted to hear thereby not receiving the validation they thought they were going to get.

In this age of entitlement when a question is asked and the answer that is recieved is not a 'cure all' and the questioner has to actually do more research or more work then the questioner feels unhelped or even slighted.

I believe that quite often this is where you can sepertate those who are magicians from those who are just in it for the tricks. Often those that actually do the work will value the answer more and take it to heart and learn from it, rather then those who just get stuff handed to them. I don't believe that everyone has to re-invent the wheel but at least show a willingness to put in the needed legwork.

I hope in some of my responses I hope to be of help to somebody, maybe give a different perspective or just stear somebody onto the right, or different track even if it is not the person who originally asked the question. So in that regard I think we help. I know I've been helped here.

Mandrake wrote:Some of the responses I get by PM are unbelievably ungrateful!

Sorry...