talkmagic.co.uk

by **dup** » Apr 10th, '10, 18:04

Go go Carl Sagan!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9KT4M7kiSw

Sorry :>

by **Just Steve** » Apr 10th, '10, 22:40

@ SamGurney + Serendipity

Guys this was exactly the kind of answers i was trying to provoke! Im glad you guys took the time to share your views on your influences and styles, both of which have intrigued me!

Keep em coming people

Cheers,
Steve

by **TheStoner** » Apr 10th, '10, 23:01

Sk8r St3v3 wrote:@TheStoner Do you find that performing to audiences like that allows you to open up to more styles or restricts you because of the usual expectations those spectators have? I mean obviously like you said you do a lot of card magic and bit of hypnotism, but do you think that satisfies people or do you feel that they look at you as 'just another magician' with a deck of cards?

To be honest if they're enjoying it and I'm enjoying it and I'm getting paid then I'm happy.

But I will use the magic as a good "in" for the hypno. If someone is really doing the whole "OMG that's amazing how on earth do you do that?" bit then hypno will be a piece of cake.

by **SamGurney** » Apr 11th, '10, 02:28

there's no point me going on about neurolinguistic programming or microexpressions for example,

Serendipity- on this particular subject, I've never mentioned it to my audience outright. A huge majority of people have heard of nlp or similar and so I leave them to make those conlusions- that way it avoids me making any unjust claims and by keeping is vauge and subjective, I like to think my audience can relate to it on a personal level more easily. And I completley agree that character is very important- many mentalists think there is a mentalist character all mentalists must have. I disagree- it's a personal affiar; it must be a role that the performer can relate to and get others to relate to. Kenton Knepper, if anyone's on facebook, just posted a mini- facebook essay (indeed- how bizarre) most interesting words indeed, about character and personality. He raises the very valid point of art. Magic can be art- but only if the performer takes it and treats it as a masterpiece. If I may give an analogy (can we see where Carl Sagan comes in yet

) - I think of it as music. Music can be art- but it is not necesserily art just for being music. I listen to pop music and High school musicals and all these other nonsenses and Hannah Montana and her evil father- born of the very sperm of satan :twisted:

, and I see comercial money making 'music'. Then I listen to Stairway to Heaven (Alas, Robert Plant) and I hear a masterpiece- thought out, meaningful, artistic, well thought out and, lets be honest, a wonderfully entertaining and engaging piece of music. The difference is that whilst music can be entertaining without having any 'artistic' reason behind it- I much prefer music that has been treated as a masterpiece, as a blank canvas- rather than a corporate, comercial, evil pile of catchy devli music. Magic is the same:
I quote Kenton:

I use truth to show illusion and illusion to show truth.
Be entertaining, sure. As a magical performer, be sure to mystify them, absolutely. Artists share their secret inner world with the outer world. That is what makes for art. THAT is what makes a true magical artist - one who surpasses even good entertainment.

by **magicbyfish** » Apr 11th, '10, 08:20

Sk8r St3v3
Initially i read your postas coming across as somewhat apologetic in its, im not intending to do magic full time but enjoy it as a hobby. If truth were known , the vast majority of members of this board and others are just that,, very enthusiastic hobbyists. Many get to fulfill their dreams of bright lights and grease paint ( or the close up equivalent) by doing occassional shows. There is nothing wrong with this at all, a hell ov a lot of good pro magicians started in this way , so never knock it or yourself.
The persona you play or indeed the type of magic you do generally has to fit two fundamentals.
Primarily, you have to be comfortable with it, if not it simply wont work long time.
Secondly, It must fit a given market , or perhaps perceived market.

the latter is especially true when you consider the trends in magic. Currently, street magic as it is known, is enjoying a huge level of popularity. Largely due to the publicity affordeded to it by the likes of blaine, dynamo etc. However, it has to be said , for the most part it is little more than genneral magic put into a diffenet performance arena,(refer to first fundamental) With the proliferation of the web and various over hyped (they shall remain contemptously nameless) american magic companies, 'street' magic is being brough tto thousands of new people every day.

Mentalism and psychological magic are a very di9fferent kettle of fish, derren brown , looch,Tomo etc have popularised this and have done bloody well at it.
In the public perception sadly, theres is little difference between mentalism and magic. Many people do effects using psycholical patter , attributing the effect to NLP, (PAH !!!) body language etc and people do seem to enjoy this type of work .

When you combine real psychology with the presentation of the effect thats when you begin to appeal to a real cross section. Kenton, has allready been mentioned in this thread, and his seminal work wonder words, is a basic for many leading pros worldwide. In my correspondance with him, i have learned that whatever your character, most people will appreciate it more if you come across as sincere and passionate.

So as for personas for performing, I have been , the larger than life kiddies uncle type, holiday camp style when i used to do kids shows ( many many moons ago), the quiet barman (a la shulien), the slighlty camp, bouncy general performer, the dusken traveller ( bizarre storytelling traveller), general bon viveur, and soon to be released Igor Strange ( a truly odd comedy magician from faraway place and no farmyard animals)

All these personas have some degree of interchangeability but match given markets and therefore mutliple income streams ( oh yes i also deal in magic)
so ultimatley i think that he words of john Dunne ( i think) TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE .

alex

by **themagicwand** » Apr 11th, '10, 09:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNOx4U49Rj4

by **Just Steve** » Apr 11th, '10, 11:35

@magicbyfish

I guess it just appeared to me that most of the people i have seen on here seem to be into magic as more than just a hobby, but thats probably as you say a misjudgement.

That aside the whole idea of this thread is for me to learn more about how people use/variate their magic and i have to admit i am quite enjoying some of the posts that have been made, yours included.

They have all given me an insight into just how versatile you lot have made magic for yourselves and, as i stated to begin with i am not using it to garner ideas for myself but to get a general idea of peoples different experiences with the culture.

On a side note, I have noticed that this community here is by far the most polite i have ever met as online communities go, and i hope i might end up meeting some of you in the future.

Anyhow, i just wanted to say what i have begun to percieve of magic styles and specifically those that i am most interested in. I can understand how frustrating it must be for the majority of you when you see new kids (14/15 year olds etc) getting into magic because of the media types like Blaine, iv had a similar experience with a past hobby, and it really winds you up sometimes. But nowadays it is inevitable as the marketing teams of major media conglomorates are just too clever to leave any underground culture untouched.

Funnily enough, as i stated in my introduction post, i started into magic several weeks ago by a completely different means and one that i found to be quite an amusing coincidence.

Therefore my attitude coming into magic was not, 'oh i cant wait to be david blaine' etc (i had never actually known anything about the man but his name before two weeks ago - an impressive feat i know, considering the amount of media coverage he gets) but rather I looked into magic as a whole and become obsessed with card/close-up magic and flourishing.

I don't know what your opinions of Theory11 are (i assume you lot probably frown upon it, but i am ust guessing, not making a judgement) but thats what i used as a starting point and now i am beginning to increase my knowledge of magic day by day, with a constant thirst to learn more.

Once again i am writing far too much but i just wanted to explain my mindset as i entered into this bizarrely fascinating underground culture, that i never new existed in such depth before.

Cheers,
Steve

by **Serendipity** » Apr 11th, '10, 11:43

To take the music analogy and run with it, I personally think that the soundtrack to High School Musical is as much a piece of art as Stairway, or a piece of Sondheim, or Mozart. I don't enjoy it as much as some other forms of music, but I don't think it is any less a carefully worked piece of art.

When the writers of Cheese-tastic grinfest High School Musical sat down to write the film, they weren't trying to recreate Les Miserables or Led Zepellin, they were trying to make a cheese-tastic grinfest, and they succeeded.

I think this is basically the same with magic. If you are putting together a sponge ball routine, you can do a really rubbish, token effort, or you can put together a really well constructed, well thought out piece of magic. At the end of the day it's still a sponge ball routine, and it may never have the drama of a piece of mentalism, but it is still a piece of art, and should be judged appropriately against other sponge routines.

It's like comparing a painting to the angel of the North. They're both works of art, but they're not exactly comparable.

by **magicbyfish** » Apr 11th, '10, 15:05

i actually like theory 11 stuff,, cant do a lot of it but i do like it ,,

David wiilliamson does a good thing in his lecture about the nexcoming magic and the reactions of older mages quite funny.

i think what a lot of older magicians take umbridge with is that many of the 'newbies' have learnt from dvd, without any thought to the structure or entertainment and routining aspects of magic. lets face it anyone can do a trick with cards,, some do amzing effects some just do tricks.

ive done large banquets at hotels and corporate events both here and internationally and for the most part, the 'newbie' theory 11ists and ellusionist performers have fallen down on their lack of appreciation for performing skills. many have simply been waved off as jugglers which is a shame because, to be fair , they have spent a long time learning the skills.

That said to a lot of 14 - 15 year olds, who are borne of the i want it now, wont wait gimme gimme gimme instant gratification or i sulk generation , then there is a demand for quickfire non stop revelation and juggling style. all well and good. But for me, its the young professionals, and the parents of these 14/15 yr olds that have the disposable income to afford my services. I am of the 'involve them emotionally and create lasting memories' school of magic and i make no apologies for this.

alex

www.alexdfisher.co.uk
magician & infotainer

by **SamGurney** » Apr 11th, '10, 16:29

i am not using it to garner ideas for myself

Not that that's a problem with anyone. I find this thread very thought provoking and enjoy reading about other mentalists and magician's presentations in books and on the internet. I have come across much inspiration this way.
Now, to further the music anology EVEN more ( :!:

) I think we better decide what art actually is. I go by Kenton's definition, and by the fact it is something that has the power to change people, and naturally that engages in their emotions. Just because something serves function a (a cheesy grinfest, as you put it :lol:

) does not make it art, in my opinion anyway. Perhaps when the function is more refined and meaninful, perhaps it enters the realms of artistry. I think of it (by means of another anology) like the beatles. There early stuff was great to listen to, gooey and really catchy. But their latter stuff (sgt peppers album for example) I think was more meaningful and artistic- but then again, I'm not the gooey and love song type, so perhaps it isn't art for me. Which takes us to a wonderful point- that art is subjective, incredibly so. The meaning is all dependent on the person experiencing it. That said, it is pure fact that stairway to heaven is 100x better than hannah montana :twisted:

And, we find ourselves talking about idols and this culture of young magicians and the sort of 'ellusionist' culture that infuriates us so greatly. Me, being the age I am, know several magic hobbyists around my age who are of that... orientation :lol:

. Try as I do, they still try and talk to me about cheap tricks that have been exposed to them on the internet and comercial tricks they've bought (which are all in the old books btw, I think anyway) and wonderful gadgets and gimmicks. It is unfortunate, that they have little appreciation for performance, characterisation, being entertaining (and talking with anything but monotone) and the classic books. If they have any hope of in anyway resembling their idols (which does not mean parroting them, another pet hate) then those are the things they'll need to start taking an interest in. There is nothing wrong with being inspired or getting into magic from seeing it done on the television, I'm pretty sure we all get into it after being inspired by watching someone either at a party or on tv or whatever, but it begins to take liberties when they become impersonators!! And tbh, it does annoy me greatly sometimes when I see what they do to our.. ahem... 'art'. But, what can I do *sigh* :roll:

by **magicbyfish** » Apr 11th, '10, 17:07

i was just watching a film on the singer Donovan, to the younger readers,, a kind of british bob dylan, and if you havent heard of bob dylan , then kindly drown yourself.
Anyway he came up with something very profound and i think sort of applicable to the way this thread is leading.
basically he said that prior to the eighties, life, art, music, everything was there to be experienced, since then theyare all there to be bought.
he was commenting on the lack of soul and spirit in life and music specifically nowadays but i think magic has probably suffered in much the same way

alex

by **Just Steve** » Apr 11th, '10, 20:57

@ SamGurney

Good! Thats what i was hoping to do, provoke discussion to benefit everyone.

It is strange really as although i wish i had started getting into Magic at a younger age, getting into it now at 18 going on 19 (which i know still makes me a young'un compared to you lot

) I am quite grateful it has turned out this way, because i have gone into it with the mindset of a much more mature young adult who wants to experience it on many different levels for many different reasons, as opposed to the teenagers who just want to impress each other.

@ magicbyfish

That is a very good way of summarising the changes our western cultures have taken, i mean if you look at the reasons/ways that many of the successful magicians today, and less specifically all professionals in 'artistic' fields, originally got into their craft, you can see that difference and how everything has been soaked up and then rinsed and soaked until it becomes a lot less meaningful and harder to find a way to experience the original aesthetic of different art forms.

That leads onto a comment i wanted to make on the description of what art really is or means. Im a Film student and enthusiast and i think it is pretty safe to say that regarding the whole of film as an art form is a pretty bland statement. Like what you said about music Sam, both film and music can be art forms, but only when they are really created by an individual who cares, is passionate about and loves that medium of expression. Art, whatever form, is a way for individuals or groups of people to express their emotion, opinions and overall their life/lifestyle in a way that is unique and impressionable and also inspirational.

A friend of mine made this analogy of films once, he said that if you go and see 'Transformers 2' you will enjoy the flashy effects and action riddled sequences, but it lacks meaning and purpose, and therefore should be referred to as a movie. A film on the other hand is a masterpiece/artistic construction that focuses on character studies, plot depth, cinematography and so on and therefore earns the title of film, something like Woody Allen's 'Manhattan'. I am a huge fan of film noir (1940s crime thrillers with a very dark atmosphere) and i find that all the films then are completely unique and different from each other. Nowadays though, although styles, genres and narratives/ideas are so frequently recycled for lack of contemporary creativity this does not mean that artistic films are not possible to create, they are just more challenging and require their creator to use their initiative and stray from the norm.

That analogy links to your music one Sam, and like you did, can be applied to Magic, i believe. Even though we can not experience different Magic forms as you may have been able to several decades ago, or even back in the 18th century, that does not mean that everything nowadays is 'bought' so to put it. Instead it just requires us to transform what is generic and try things that most people are too afraid or lazy to try.

Going back to kids idolising the modern media magicians, like Blaine and his type, there is a very good quote i once heard to summarise that: "Once you make somebody your idol, you lose all chance of become better than him." And i think that is true, because you look up to someone and see them as such a greater entity compared to yourself, you can not come close to their level, as you are trying to hard to be a follower and not a leader. If you become a leader instead of a follower, not only can you reach great heights, you can also do so by using a path that inspires others and creates new paths for others to lead further than yours, therefore broadening not only your experiences but that of a whole cultures.

To conclude, I am glad that i have got into Magic at a later age, as it has allowed me to see past a lot of the c*** (not the best) and layers of deception that our media attaches to everything. I very much hope this will become a lifelong hobby and something that i can use to inspire other people with along the way, akin to my love of film making and writing.

Cheers, i haven't been part of a forum thread this interesting in an age,
Steve

by **Just Steve** » Apr 11th, '10, 21:02

Sk8r St3v3 wrote:@ SamGurney

Good! Thats what i was hoping to do, provoke discussion to benefit everyone.

It is strange really as although i wish i had started getting into Magic at a younger age, getting into it now at 18 going on 19 (which i know still makes me a young'un compared to you lot ) I am quite grateful it has turned out this way, because i have gone into it with the mindset of a much more mature young adult who wants to experience it on many different levels for many different reasons, as opposed to the teenagers who just want to impress each other.

@ magicbyfish

That is a very good way of summarising the changes our western cultures have taken, i mean if you look at the reasons/ways that many of the successful magicians today, and less specifically all professionals in 'artistic' fields, originally got into their craft, you can see that difference and how everything has been soaked up and then rinsed and soaked until it becomes a lot less meaningful and harder to find a way to experience the original aesthetic of different art forms.

That leads onto a comment i wanted to make on the description of what art really is or means. Im a Film student and enthusiast and i think it is pretty safe to say that regarding the whole of film as an art form is a pretty bland statement. Like what you said about music Sam, both film and music can be art forms, but only when they are really created by an individual who cares, is passionate about and loves that medium of expression. Art, whatever form, is a way for individuals or groups of people to express their emotion, opinions and overall their life/lifestyle in a way that is unique and impressionable and also inspirational.

A friend of mine made this analogy of films once, he said that if you go and see 'Transformers 2' you will enjoy the flashy effects and action riddled sequences, but it lacks meaning and purpose, and therefore should be referred to as a movie. A film on the other hand is a masterpiece/artistic construction that focuses on character studies, plot depth, cinematography and so on and therefore earns the title of film, something like Woody Allen's 'Manhattan'. I am a huge fan of film noir (1940s crime thrillers with a very dark atmosphere) and i find that all the films then are completely unique and different from each other. Nowadays though, although styles, genres and narratives/ideas are so frequently recycled for lack of contemporary creativity this does not mean that artistic films are not possible to create, they are just more challenging and require their creator to use their initiative and stray from the norm.

That analogy links to your music one Sam, and like you did, can be applied to Magic, i believe. Even though we can not experience different Magic forms as you may have been able to several decades ago, or even back in the 18th century, that does not mean that everything nowadays is 'bought' so to put it. Instead it just requires us to transform what is generic and try things that most people are too afraid or lazy to try.

Going back to kids idolising the modern media magicians, like Blaine and his type, there is a very good quote i once heard to summarise that: "Once you make somebody your idol, you lose all chance of become better than him." And i think that is true, because you look up to someone and see them as such a greater entity compared to yourself, you can not come close to their level, as you are trying to hard to be a follower and not a leader. If you become a leader instead of a follower, not only can you reach great heights, you can also do so by using a path that inspires others and creates new paths for others to lead further than yours, therefore broadening not only your experiences but that of a whole cultures.

To conclude, I am glad that i have gotten into Magic at a later age, as it has allowed me to see past a lot of the c*** (not the best) and layers of deception that our media attaches to everything. I very much hope this will become a lifelong hobby and something that i can use to inspire other people with along the way, akin to my love of film making and writing.

Cheers, i haven't been part of a forum thread this interesting in an age,
Steve

by **SamGurney** » Apr 11th, '10, 21:12

Yep. I love watching films as pieces of art. I thought that Avatar was a piece of art- it had meaning and expression, for example. I thought kickass was film- very entertaining, very funny, but not quite art. That is the ellusive distinction.
As for idolisation- absolutley true. People like Derren Brown are legends because they've followed their own nose and arrived at some place governed by their own tastes and styles, indeed being influenced along the way, but never by following the tracks of their idols. For example, in the 60s the Beatles inspired many very similar bands to jump on the bandwagon- but they lived, for the most part, in their shadows.
It is interesting that everything I know links together. There is no field of research that holds itself in iscolation. There is philosophy in magic if you care to look for it, psychology in magic, magic in mathematics, science in magic, mathematics in science, cinematography can be linked to magic, and so on. A film student taking looking at magic through those sunglasses is conformation of that.

by **Just Steve** » Apr 11th, '10, 22:09

Oops didnt mean to somehow quote myself in a double post ^^

Yeah, everything links together somehow through art, and it is fascinating. I feel exactly the same way if i come to experience/appreciate a brilliant film as if i do a brilliant book, or a brilliant performance by a magician. The way art brings different mediums AND people together at once is fantastic, for instance the way that quite a lot of the professionals on Theory11 do their own film production and most of the time it comes out really well.

Homer Liwag is a prime example, and i particularly adore his style because he is an artist as well as a magician and even has a degree in art, which stems through his magic and video production. It is people combining not only magic styles but other art forms with magic that provide a brilliant creative outlet for magic as a whole.

Cheers,
Steve

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