As an atheist, agnostic, or humanist

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As an atheist, agnostic, or humanist

Postby Beardy » Jun 25th, '10, 23:26



Just a quick question to those with potential experience in these matters.

As an atheist, agnostic, humanist, or any kind of person who may not specifically have a belief in an afterlife, how does one deal with loss of a close relative or loved one and the grieving process? To those with experience in these matters, I would be interested to see your response.

Even to those who have not had experience, it would be interesting as well, how you personally believe you would handle the grieving process and loss, but preferably from those with experience who know best from what has happened specifically to themselves :)

Thanks wholeheartedly in advance

Love

Chris
xxx

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Postby IAIN » Jun 25th, '10, 23:33

Gail Sheehy covers most of it...

after those seven steps, i'd probably try my best to remember that the relative is still within my genetics in some way, and that if i need help to get over a bad day - then i can genuinely find that person, some kind of element of them - buzzing around my system in some way...

if it was a partner (hate that term) then it would be, for me, remembering that you both shared and experienced things together that could never be repeated in the exact same way - and to take comfort in those unique moments...

and, i believe that when you are with someone for a long while - you end up mimicking one another in certain ways - and therefore 'absorb' part of them...its hard to explain that one actually...

but thats how i feel/see it...

IAIN
 

Postby Harris » Jun 25th, '10, 23:36

Totally depending on why you are asking will depend on how much effort ill put in my reply.

As someone who deals with end of life on an almost daily basis ...

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Postby IAIN » Jun 25th, '10, 23:43

knowing beardy, its to save him the hard work of researching something, or to make him money :twisted: :)

IAIN
 

Postby IanKendall » Jun 25th, '10, 23:54

It's not easy, but I took comfort in knowing that the pain was over. The grieving, I think is the same as for religious people, but you don't allow yourself to make excuses like 'they are in a better place now'.

It's all about memories. Some are good, some are bad, and in time they fade (or at least don't resurface as often).

It could be said that an afterlife only exists to comfort the living. If you can think rationally to see through this, it makes it easier to realise that death is the natural follow on from life, and then you move on.

Ian

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Postby Beardy » Jun 26th, '10, 00:07

Thanks Ian - that makes sense! And thanks Iain, that also makes sense! I was thinking about the genetic thing today, but it's the only "comfort" (so to speak) that I could personally think of!

IAIN wrote:knowing beardy, its to save him the hard work of researching something, or to make him money :twisted: :)


Both.....I am doing a psychology degree with a dissertation and project after all ;)

Love

Chris
xxx

"An amazing mind manipulator" - Uri Geller
"I hope to shake your hand before I die" - Derren Brown
"That was mightily impressive - I have absolutely no clue how you did that" - Tim Minchin
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Postby IAIN » Jun 26th, '10, 00:13

well, use surveymonkey.com then put it on your facebook page...

IAIN
 

Postby SamGurney » Jun 26th, '10, 00:25

Well, this will sound very strange. But upon hearing such news, I generally feel like laughing. I know it is apparently common, but it feels incredibly arkward: because it is obviously tradgic news, and I am there, not even finding it funny, feeling a tickling laugh buid up in my face. :oops:
If I remember, this is to do with shock. Which sounds about right, because my mind then responded to this shock by in a way denying it. I knew it was real, and it was happening, but deep down I was questioning reality. In this sence, it didn't really 'hit' me.
Then I felt guilty, for not feeling bad- even though it is because I hadn't really realised it was real yet, even though conciously, I knew it was real. I believe it is a coping mechanism. I went to see my deceased grandfather's body and at that time it still had not hit me. In my mind he was asleep, even though there was the rational, meaningless voice telling me that he was dead. My mind just blocked reality out, in a way, to protect me because it would have overwealmed it. It was only once at the funeral when I saw his coffin did it 'hit' me, the reality of the situation.

A boy from my school unfortunatley commited suicide a few months ago, and there was the same shock as in other cases, except I felt sick from the shock and phsyically dizzy: all from the shock. And this time, I got to see, beyond close family members (where it is your family greaving, and outside the window the world is just going on as normal), the widespread devistation and hysterics that the event caused as everyone in that school 'community' was affectd by it and because of that, I realised it as evidently real sooner. You'd expect that when someone who you care about just vanished from you life, the world will stop spinning and when it doesn't, it is difficult to accept that it has truly happened. But I saw that the world did stop spinning, when everyone came out of the assembly hall upon hearing the news, normally there is the roar of 1000 animals talking and filling up their egos, but there was a tremendous, empty silence. Nobody spoke for about half an hour, nobody knew what to say or how to respond. On that occasion it 'hit' me earlier than usual. I think the final realisation was just the little things which remind you: someone had unfortunatley been booked to talk about careers and the future, when in fact, nobody could bear to think about the future especially after one of their own just lost his. I think that really knocked me. Someone else told me that when they saw their friend's name in print, that watered their eye's too.
Something else which I find, is that there is a horrible amnesia which occurs. I understand a fair share about amnesia from my hypno/ nlp studies and it tends to happen once you panic and are in shock or a different state. Then there is a reciprocal loop in which the more you try and remember something, the more you panic, the more you panic the less you remember, and the more you panic.. ad nausium... But anyway, people, I have found, really worry that they cannot remember what the person looked like, or sounded like. I have experienced this myself, and when you're rational mind is telling your emotions that your memories are important, it is a horrible, horrible feeling.
Which is another important thing, when your emotions overwhealm you, people tend to make little jokes, amidst the tears. And there is a mutual understanding amongst the bereaved, as everyone consoles one another. I also observe, that people switch into caring mode and there are certain people who become 'centre stage' in the fact that they are supposedly the most bereaved or closest to the deceased person.

So, those are my observations and personal experiences with people dealing with loss. I hope it is of help, I have had too much experience with these things for someone of my age.
If you are asking for my personal, less engulfed in emotion views on death, they are very positive. For me I try to use it as a day to mark the celebration of the very fact that person was alive, and remember that death means life. I remember that they don't ever stop existing, that they never will, they are part of my reality and they live on in their influence and in people's memories. And there is always one thought which evokes a smile: the image that I have of seeing family member who hate each others guts, who actually participate in feudal warfare with eachother hugging each other, unified by their common grief. That is always a positive thing. I went to a funeral, where I was smiling throughout the whole ceremony because I could remember that person and had really fond memories of them which the reverend was reminding me of. I was smiling at the caring that it brought out in people.. but then a song came on, and despite being genuinley fine, it hit a nerv and all of a sudden I was desperatley fighting back tears for the sake of my little nephew. I don't know why, but music has that power to penetrate any fronts that are put on and just tear them down. At the funeral service of the boy from my school that I was talking about, I switched off because the local revered was manipulating it to turn vulnerable people to his religion, so I opted to sit there reminiscing and thinking about death.. I was realativley fine, if not a little absorbed in the sobre atmosphere, but then a beatifully sung song just knocked me and cracked me open and I had a massive lump in my throat.
So anyway... I'll shut up now.. but those are my observations. I hope this is what you wanted Beardy or I will have to tell everyone about how your getting laid in front of a load of scientists :twisted: :lol:
Cause if you wanted my observations on death in general, not bereavment, then I will be typing for years :roll:

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Postby Beardy » Jun 26th, '10, 00:37

Cheers Sam - it's nice to know I'm not the only person who thinks of these things.

Iain, just to let you know, I'm not really doing any sort of professional research into bereavement. It was a genuine question :)

Love

Chris
xxx

"An amazing mind manipulator" - Uri Geller
"I hope to shake your hand before I die" - Derren Brown
"That was mightily impressive - I have absolutely no clue how you did that" - Tim Minchin
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Postby SamGurney » Jun 26th, '10, 00:43

I realise now that I was wildly off topic, but I needed to relieve it.. so thanks for making me write it.
Oh how did that thing go about looking in the mirror or have you not done it yet?.. tut tut selling yourself in the name of research.. :lol:

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Postby IAIN » Jun 26th, '10, 00:46

i think the bottom line is, its too personal a thing...you'll get as many answers as people i reckon...

some people carry the anger of the loss for years, some choose to never let go of it...

others will be clinical and accept it all pretty quickly...

its one of the big questions in life...in some way, it could also be seen as a gift - as in, a reminder to you, the one who still lives to stop worrying about the smaller, less important things in life - and focus more on what is truly important to you in the time you are alive...it may even enable you to let go of other past negative feelings you may be storing up...

and also as a reminder to try and have fun, laugh and love as much as possible before it happens...

IAIN
 

Postby twotonedskazn » Jun 26th, '10, 02:32

I have best dealt with death of those close to me by simply crying for a day or two. It is never good to bottle up any sad feelings, especially mourning. Then, I recall the best memories, of which I could start the statement with "Haha, remember when..." When I think like THAT after a while, I can more easily be happy that I was with such a person rather than continue to be sad that he/she is gone.

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Re: As an atheist, agnostic, or humanist

Postby Tomo » Jun 26th, '10, 11:08

Beardy wrote:As an atheist, agnostic, humanist, or any kind of person who may not specifically have a belief in an afterlife, how does one deal with loss of a close relative or loved one and the grieving process? To those with experience in these matters, I would be interested to see your response

I've been without a god for 17 years now. since then I've experienced a few suicides and the death of my Grandmother. You grieve like anyone else grieves, which I've always equated with the mind struggling to fit the deceased person into a new and unwelcome context. There are all the usual unbearable memories that keep flooding your mind, and the regrets. But it also makes you dwell on your own mortality. What was it like for them? What will it be like for you?

The thing is, part of losing god is the realisation that you'll one day stop happening and that it can't be avoided. You wonder a lot about when it'll happen, how it'll happen and why. It's frightening to begin with, and that fear can no longer be offset by any notion of an afterlife. You have to find your own way of accepting and living with the knowledge of your own mortality.

For me, that acceptance ultimately became a form of strength and drive. You DO have limited time to get things done. Time becomes the most precious resource in the world. You start wondering if you'll get out of the decade alive. Not in a morbid way, but as a form of forward planning, which must sound very strange to a lot of people. You also begin to form deep regrets about wasting your earlier life, when you believed you had all the time in the world. Now you realise there's a storm you must outrun.

Carpe diem, and all that. Or as the situationalists say, when you kill time you murder success, but my Latin isn't up to translating that.

Can I have a cite in your thesis? :D

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Postby IAIN » Jun 26th, '10, 11:32

and also, what if we are all wrong?

its one of the things that genuinely annoys me about the whole religious/atheist thinking...too limiting...not many seem to think for themselves...its just "oh right, well, here's the rules for x, y and z - thats me sorted..." and off you go...

one of the joys of life is to truly think for yourself...

what if, there is a god - but its a kind of cosmic gardener? yes yes, it looks silly in your mind's eye right now, but ignore that image...

just because men have told others that "these are the rules of god...", does it mean its true?

just becuase there are x-amount of religions in the world, does it have to mean god is actually represented by one? or is it/he/she something else all together? maybe these rules are really man-made, and therefore do not represent god (whatever that may truly be) at all...

so when we get angry over a disaster - and blame god for being all seeing and all knowing...maybe he's just not...but we think he is cos we read it in a book and have been told it often enough - by other humans...

maybe the the big bang was caused by a god of some kind? maybe an unseen force that causes things to happen, could be described as a god, or maybe some kind of energy (that is science based)...

which leads me to death, it could be that there is no heaven or hell, but also maybe there is "something" else...

maybe we are fleshy batteries - the energy that powers us slowly fades away, could it be that if the shell of that energy is destroyed before its natural time - all that energy "leaks out", where does it go? is it a ghost? could it be that people that have almost too much energy, perhaps they can do something with it?

all these things are questions - i do not need answers from my other forum members (cos in all honesty, your opinions on these questions don't/won't have any meaning within the context of my own life)...

i think as we like patterns, order and routine, we also take the easy route of believing what we are told...think for yourself, do not be ashamed to do so, if others think you silly - so what? its not their life, its yours...

i do not think about my death, it'll come when its time...i completely accept my death in every way...though no doubt it'll be painful or unexpected or maybe both - part of thinks "finally! i'll find out..." just before I'm hit by that bus being driven by a panther, dressed as hitler...

IAIN
 

Postby SamGurney » Jun 26th, '10, 12:51

We're worryingly conditioned to want to find labels and conform to them. It can be very dangerous in fact: the first step to discrimination is finding an distinction between 'us' and 'them'. That and labeling theory can be very, very ugly.. It can also be helpful: but that is another story.

Anyway, I believe I am eternal. In the same way I have been living forever, the same way I will live forever. Given that death is the stopping of physical form, and that 'perception' is the product of that physical form (some might disagree, but I believe that)- then in exactley the same way that my perception did not exist before I developed perception and therefore I had no way of perceiving the start of my own perception- the same way I will not perceive the stopping of my perception. Ergo, within my perception, I am eternal.
Death does not worry me- perhaps it's because I have thought about it enough that I know its nothing to worry about, especially because it is inevitable. I was dead, in the sense that I was not alive, for billions of years before I was born, and it didn't bother me then... A lot of philosophy is in coming to terms with your own death. I suppose then, death is a convincing argument for hedonism: if we only get one shot, why waste it on stupid pointless ambition, and drab, unsatisfying jobs, arguing, hating and negativity... There has to be more to life than exams, work, retirement- there is a whole world and universe out there and we have the capacity to be happy, which we should use. I suppose Bobby McFerrinn duped Descartes, Schopenhauer, Aristotle, Russell.. blah blah when he sang 'Dornt worry.. Beee happy'.

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