talkmagic.co.uk

I know this is actually the second (pointless) thread I've started in the space of a few hours, but hey, we all have our slow days.

I was just fiddling with a deck of fine tally-hos, when it occured to me, I'm pretty sure that 90% the illusions you can perform with trick decks could be replicated without the use of special cards. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't claim to have knowledge of all the trick decks out there, but the more common ones I'm well aware of.

A few examples would be a stripper, svengali and an ID. I mean the stripper is basicly to keep track of a selected card, but I'm sure that everyone on this site has several ways you could keep track on a card in the deck. The svengali is just a way to force a selection, and I have countless ways to do that as I'm sure you all have too. Finally the ID gives the illusion you knew their card before hand. I admit that to have a predicted card facing the other way in a deck, in its box that hadn't been touch would take abit of thinking but just as I'm writing this I have thought of a method or two, and I'm sure there will be methods in print somewhere.

I guess that the point I'm trying to get across is do we really need them? I mean, yes they make the trick easier, but I see a few problems, firstly that's lazy, that could just be me. I also think it's quite dangerous to have a prop that can't be inspected, I suppose a stripper could be fanned to look at although with handling it could be worked out, but the invisible and svengali can't even have the cards spread.

I won't use this kind of stuff because of these reasons and a few others, but also because we shouldn't rely on trick decks, we should use our creativity, that's what separates good magicians from kids that just buy a cheap trick from a magic shop.

These were just some thoughts I'd had that I thought I would post, probably not as well as I could but still, like I said, slow day. Please don't hate on me for ripping on these decks, there are others that I'm aware of and I just picked on these because their common, and bare in mind I said I recon you could replicate 90% not everything. And don't hate me for maybe talking too much about how the decks work, I don't think I gave too much away. Otherwise thanks for reading through yet another long winded irrelivant thread of mine. One day I'll post something you might view as important.

Anthony

hds02115 wrote:I mean the stripper is basicly to keep track of a selected card

Oooh, don't let Tomo hear you say that!

I also think it's quite dangerous to have a prop that can't be inspected, I suppose a stripper could be fanned to look at although with handling it could be worked out, but the invisible and svengali can't even have the cards spread.

The stripper deck can be handled. I've lent one off Tomo a few times in fact, and I couldn't see the gaff (the first time I didn't even know it was a stripper deck... until he put it back together again after I shuffled it). It just needs to be manufactured well

The ID can be fanned out... you fan it out as part of the trick. And to be honest it doesn't really matter that they can't handle and inspect it. It's easy to handle the deck so that it appears they've seen both sides of the cards, but if you're that worried they'll ask to inspect the cards it's easy enough to do a deck swap on the offbeat.... or you can just tell them 'no'

I can't comment on the Svengali deck, I've never handled one. But I think it can be handled in such a way to make it appear 'normal'


They're useful decks to have, it means you can do a lot more stuff that you can't do with an ungaffed one. They're just another tool, really. And the ID is a very powerful trick

I admit that the tricks you can pull off using them are great and mind numbing to a spectator, I just feel that their like owning a 4x4 in the city, you don't really need it, but it's nice to drive. I suppose you could get away with an ID, a svengali however it would take great care, I can't really go into it because it would reveal too much, but anyone who has handled one will know. And I suppose you could do a deck swap, but I just think it's not needed, you could do the same with a normal deck and continue without adding the possibility of being caught swapping.

That's just my view, and I suppose I should throw it out there I mearly put this up because it was a thought I had and wondered about others ideas on it. I'm not looking for a fight. That's not aimed at you Kolm, it's just for anyone who might take me the wrong way.

Welcome to the art, Anthony. You have much to learn.

I agree, a Svengali Deck has some serious flaws. The obvious one is that the force card is always the same so you can't perform a different trick with the same deck to different groups of people in the same venue. Also the spectator selection is unnatural I think, it is more usual for the cards to be fanned and the spectator freely selects one, instead with the Svengali deck the magician does this riffle selection nonsense. Also the spectator isn't allowed to shuffle the cards to begin with. And if you are making your own Svengali Deck to match the normal everyday cards that are common in your part of the World then it is very expensive to do. And I think it is pointless having a Svengali Deck that doesn't match the appearance of a normal everyday pack of cards that is seen and used in your neighbourhood/town/city/corner of the World.

I agree, V.E. Day, it's not wise to drive in a nail with a screwdriver.

What you list are not flaws but limitations. Some of the limitations are self-imposed by you and are easily worked around by others. Some are legit limitations of the nature of the Svengali but NOT it's principle. The Trilby, Mene Tekel, Mirage, etc. decks are examples of the principle being used in another manner.

Welcome to the art, Anthony. You have much to learn.

I don't want to seem petty, but don't assume that just because I'm a "new member" with a low post rate, that I'm a novice, I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet but I have a very good knowledge of a number of magical genres, and without trying to dig too much, I seem to have a better knowledge than some others I've seen on here, although I suppose by saying that I am falling into the same trap you did by making assumtions by infomation at hand.

Again, I'm sorry not trying to dig, this thread wasn't posted to argue, mearly to get others oppinions, not for the petty comments I see from time to time on this forum.

Back to the topic at hand though, I do agree with V.E. day, with the svengali I do think it's a strange way to get someone to select a card, and you do get the spectator from time to time that just isn't satisfied unless they shuffle or inspect the deck, and in situations like that you can't really say no. I feel that if it's our job (and by job I mean job, but you could also take it that if you choose to start performing magic even for friends, you take on the responsability not to give away these secrets), then it's our duty to work around the people watching, we shouldn't have to limit the experiance, of course we will control and minipulate people into doing what we want, but they should never be able to tell that's going on, so by limiting the spectator to not being able to inspect or shuffel if they ask, that's ruining that. Not to mention it basicly says "if you do that it will ruin the effect".

I'm interested about what others have to say. So far it seems people are in favor of gimmicked decks. That seems strange to me, I would have thought it the other way round.

Sometimes having them shuffle and do all the handling of the cards tends slow the progress of the effect down. Also there is nothing wrong with saying "No." to them. Lot's of performers say "No." to their spectators wanting to examine everything, and they still manage to get hired for paying gigs.

That's a good point, I suppose if you were in a table hopping situation, letting people shuffle isn't a good thing, I'm mainly going with the idea that every once in a while you'll get that person that is more interested in seeing you slip up and who wants to catch you out.

I also understand that it's ok to say no. A no every now and again would be like a drop in the ocean, but if you do say no, that person of group of people will always have that thought in the back of their mind that you couldn't do the effect if they were to shuffle, and it could be days, months or years later, but they will probably tell someone about your performance, and with the exagerations and distortions that change the memory over time, would you rather they tell of this mind bending effect, or this effect that they extreamly underplay.

If the magician just wants bookings that's ok, I'm only human, I have bills to pay, but I'd like to think we all would love to have our performances exagerated over and over into a crazy/ impossable effect, rather than be remembered as that magician that almost got caught.

Again, just my input. I'm not arguing, I'm just enjoying what other's think on this subjuct, I got a very thought provoking message from Demitri. I'd love to hear from some more people.

You CAN have people examine the svengali deck. Of course you will have to buy my wonderful book on the subject to find out how. And there is nothing unnatural about how you have the card selected. Of course you will have to buy my book to find out how. And it doesn't really matter if the same card keeps coming up. Of course you will have to buy my book to find out why.

You can get gasps of amazement from my svengali routine which happens to be the greatest in existence. Of course you will have to buy my book to find out why............................

hds02115 wrote:That's a good point, I suppose if you were in a table hopping situation, letting people shuffle isn't a good thing, I'm mainly going with the idea that every once in a while you'll get that person that is more interested in seeing you slip up and who wants to catch you out.

I also understand that it's ok to say no. A no every now and again would be like a drop in the ocean, but if you do say no, that person of group of people will always have that thought in the back of their mind that you couldn't do the effect if they were to shuffle, and it could be days, months or years later, but they will probably tell someone about your performance, and with the exagerations and distortions that change the memory over time, would you rather they tell of this mind bending effect, or this effect that they extreamly underplay.

If the magician just wants bookings that's ok, I'm only human, I have bills to pay, but I'd like to think we all would love to have our performances exagerated over and over into a crazy/ impossable effect, rather than be remembered as that magician that almost got caught.

Again, just my input. I'm not arguing, I'm just enjoying what other's think on this subjuct, I got a very thought provoking message from Demitri. I'd love to hear from some more people.

There is an old saying "Don't wrestle with pigs, because in the end you just end up getting dirty, and the pig likes it." If somebody wants to examine everything, chances are they aren't going to want to actually enjoy the performance and are either just going to try to continue to catch you out or ruin the show for everybody. So the best bet is to ignore and perform for the people that DO want to enjoy what you are doing.

If you are working impromptu then you should let people examine things as much as they want. If you don't they will realise there is something wrong with your props and your effectiveness will be diminished.

However if you are working a set show especially for money the rules are different. You can't have people slowing things up. So you have to work in such a way that they don't ask to examine things. That comes with experience.

if you're performing impromptu, then the best thing to do if you can is to simply borrow a deck from some one. That way they aren't going to want to examine the cards or props because they KNOW it's their deck of cards. Thus the problem is solved.

This is ture I suppose, in my opinion, I think that the way to tackle a hecker is not to shy away and ignore them, that could leave them free to encourage others. Imagin if they go on so much another person starts. I'm not saying this always happens, or even happens often enough to worry about, but that once in a blue moon it will. There would be a few ways I would deal with a heckler, but ignoring them would not be one.

Anyway, I'm sure there's another thread somewhere for subjects about dealing with hecklers, but this one is not, so if you would like to discuss this more feel free to pm me.

So are you saying that a gimmicked deck is acceptable in a set stage piece but not in a close-up impromptu setting? I guess this is the sort of thing I was after. I still stand by what I said, that when I say I'd let spectators examine things, it's only if they ask, of course if people keep asking I would deal with that, but if someone just asked once, that is acceptable, I get the feeling people think I would offer the deck for examination all the time, I'd like to think we're all smart enough not to do that, it's up there with saying such things like "here I have a normal deck of cards".