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I don't think that there's anything at all wrong with gimmicked decks, they're a tool. Yes, you could do just about anything that's done with one of the three gimmicks mentioned with a standard deck but why bother? The gimmicks make things easier and there are also certain things that you can do with one of those decks that you can't do with an ordinary deck.

The idea that you can ask someone to lend you a pack of cards sounds good in theory but in practice is a load of tosh. NOBODY except magicians carry around decks of cards with them. If you are performing in a private house by all means ask to borrow a deck. You will have to put up with the fact that half the cards are missing and that the deck is in such bad condition that even Vernon wouldn't be able to handle them but yes, it does impress people when you use their cards. But in practice it ain't gonna happen.

In over 50 years of doing card tricks I don't think I have ever used a borrowed deck more than 10 time in actual practice.

In a set close up show where you are performing for money if you perform in an authoritative manner people will not ask to examine your props. It just doesn't happen. There is a social pressure on them not to interrupt in the same way they would in a casual impromptu environment.

If they are asking to examine your props in this type of situation the odds are that there is something wrong in the way you work. This is something you will have to eliminate through sheer experience.

One thing that will help is not to use unusual looking props. A deck of cards or a few coins is fine. Having said that my favourite trick for close up magic uses the spot paddles which look like nothing on earth. However not once in 50 years of performing close up magic has anyone ever asked to examine them except when I perform it impromptu. Even then they only ask once in 50 times or so.

Perform with authority and as if you know what you are doing and the examination problem will disappear. They simply won't ask you.

Oh, and a note to the young man who started this thread. You CAN spread a svengali deck. Of course you will have to purchase my wondrous book to find out how....................

hds02115 wrote:I was just fiddling with a deck of fine tally-hos, when it occured to me, I'm pretty sure that 90% the illusions you can perform with trick decks could be replicated without the use of special cards. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You're not wrong but I would suggest you're possibly looking at it in the wrong way.
It is true to say that you could replicate, say, the ID with a regular deck; but the effort involved in doing so is surely out weighed by the ID just being a hell of a lot easier?
And as for forcing decks.....

Anyway. Necessarry, no. Make life a hell of a lot easier, yes.

I used to think in the same way, to the point where I spent far too long learning all the complicated slieght of hand malarchy required to perform such things; then you go out and start performing them and realise it's just easier to use a gimmicked deck.
If you ever see me performing anything, I'm usually holding an R&S deck.

You should be utterly ruthless over methods. You use the best and most practical one available to you. That does not necessarily preclude sleight of hand. Sometimes sleight of hand IS the best method to use. If it is then use it. If it isn't don't.

It doesn't matter if you use a stacked deck, a gimmicked card, a mathematical principle or some kind of subtlety. IT IS THE EFFECT THAT COUNTS.

Now as I said sometimes a sleight is the most direct and efficient method of achieving a result. But not always. You have to decide on the best method and use it regardless of difficulty.

Having said all this, by and large you are better off using regular cards since you are less restricted and have a bigger variety of effects. But there is no rule saying you absolutely have to.

I do think a performer should learn to do at least some basic sleight of hand. As old Murray the escapologist used to say to me, "You are not a magician unless you can do something with your hands"

Yes. you can indeed be skilful beyond the bounds of necessity and this can actually lead to bad magic. Younger magicians are especially prone to this because they get so excited about finger flinging. But everything in moderation. You really need to learn some basic sleight of hand in the same way a musician has to learn the scales.

The key thing is to manipulate the PEOPLE rather than the props. But then it takes a long time to figure out how to do that............................

Oh my lord. I'm actually agreeing with some Mark Lewis has posted.

Ahhh the Svengali, not a day goes past without me having to dem one. There are things that you can do with a svengali that no, can't be achieved with sleight of hand. The most obvious one off the top of my head is you get the spectators selection pop it on the face and do a nice 'waterfall type display' with the cards and voila they all turn into the spectators choice in what looks to be a sloppy but very controlled display.

Watch Luke Jermay's 'An Extraordinary Exhibition of Seeing with the Fingertips' to see what can be done with a humble stripper deck.

And the beauty with the ID is it does all the work for you allowing you to concentrate on your performance. And the performance should always be the most important aspect of any effect.

Starving Stu wrote:And the performance should always be the most important aspect of any effect.

Quite right - as was said earlier, gaffed decks aren't always necessary but are very helpful.

Now, don't get me wrong, if a simple sleight can do the same job and not look contrived then that's great and would be my first option. Otherwise, give me a Svengali (or Mirage - my current fave!) anyday.

However, as the OP has said, that does limit you to the effects you can do without switching the decks, etc.... my solution? Don't do as many effects!! As Mark said earlier, the real skill is in audience management and routining. I'll often head out of an evening with 2 decks (regular and mirage) and all my usual mentalism guff in my wallet. If you don't want to get caught switching decks... only do the effects that you can do using one of the decks and then move on!

I think we're straying from the point here which I fear will discourage other's from giving their views on the topic.

I would like to think everyone who uses these forums is aware that performance is the key to unlocking real magic for our spectators, and that there aren't people out there just after cheap thrills.

I'd also like to say that I'm not totally against gimmicked decks, it was just a thought I had running through my head that I thought I'd put out there.

I'm not happy with myself for saying it, but mark did put it out there quite well that it's the effect that's important, so like I said, although personally I would normally try and perform without a gimmicked deck, the journey isn't important, it's where you end up. I actually got a pm from a guy called demitri who gave several ideas, and one did spark something.

Like I've said, I'm just looking for a nice lot of opinions so keep them coming.

hds02115 wrote:This is ture I suppose, in my opinion, I think that the way to tackle a hecker is not to shy away and ignore them, that could leave them free to encourage others. Imagin if they go on so much another person starts. I'm not saying this always happens, or even happens often enough to worry about, but that once in a blue moon it will. There would be a few ways I would deal with a heckler, but ignoring them would not be one.

Anyway, I'm sure there's another thread somewhere for subjects about dealing with hecklers, but this one is not, so if you would like to discuss this more feel free to pm me.

I'll post it here on this thread because I want too, if you are having that much trouble with a heckler then it is not the heckler that is the problem it is your act. A Heckler heckles because the heckler is drunk, or bored. Most of the audience will side against the heckler if he is interupting an act that others are enjoying. If more join in, then you just suck and should probably get off the stage.

bmat wrote:I'll post it here on this thread because I want too, if you are having that much trouble with a heckler then it is not the heckler that is the problem it is your act. A Heckler heckles because the heckler is drunk, or bored. Most of the audience will side against the heckler if he is interupting an act that others are enjoying. If more join in, then you just suck and should probably get off the stage.

Can I direct your attention to the below thread
http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic3632.php

Please read it.

hds02115 wrote:

Welcome to the art, Anthony. You have much to learn.

I don't want to seem petty, but don't assume that just because I'm a "new member" with a low post rate, that I'm a novice, I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet but I have a very good knowledge of a number of magical genres, and without trying to dig too much, I seem to have a better knowledge than some others I've seen on here, although I suppose by saying that I am falling into the same trap you did by making assumtions by infomation at hand.

Neither your post count nor your join date had anything to do with me thinking that you are new to magic.

If advice on hecklers are required you only have to ask me since it is perfectly obvious that I know more about this subject than anyone else.

I do not entirely agree with Bmat regarding hecklers but there certainly is some truth in what he says. His judgement is a bit harsh but there are indeed occasions when a performer is the cause of his own misfortune. However not always and there are ways in which the matter can be rectified.

Right, firstly:

I'll post it here on this thread because I want too, if you are having that much trouble with a heckler then it is not the heckler that is the problem it is your act. A Heckler heckles because the heckler is drunk, or bored. Most of the audience will side against the heckler if he is interupting an act that others are enjoying. If more join in, then you just suck and should probably get off the stage.

I have said it before and I'll say it again, a heckler is just something people come across ONCE IN A BLUE MOON. I don't have problems with them, I'm just commenting that it happens to everyone at some point, honestly, can you say that you've never had that? And I suppose that goes out to everyone. And I'm not talking about a stage piece, I don't personally do this setting but of course you won't get them in that setting. I had thought most people would be smart enough not to need me to spell things out quite this much.

I'd also like to say to .robb. I wasn't trying to make a problem there, maybe I missunderstood what you was getting at, but you would have to agree, if someone made that comment in your direction, it probably wouldn't go by without some kind of response.

But please, can we keep this thread on topic.

To answer the question yes.

The end not the means. A better question might be 'Does this means achieve the ends in the best way?' or 'What is the point of this effect?'.