talkmagic.co.uk

IAIN wrote:i mean, what do you want? a medal?

Oh snap.

Reality is only reality if you say it's reality. I propose a new mind-set where dreams are the new reality, and the waking time is just the bit that happens between dreams.

I mentioned this idea to my bank manager and he wasn't amused. He says they still need the loan repaying.

I voted yes.

I had to vote using my heightened sense of intuition. I voted no.

But 20% have voted "yes". That's quite high for a magic forum. On the Bunny that number would be right down.

Oddly enough I would vote no since there is no such thing as paranormal. If something exists then it must be normal. And that applies to psychic power. If it exists (and I believe it does providing you use my definition of it) then of course it must be normal rather than paranormal.

Mind you I do think that some of the more rabid sceptics can be defined as abnormal rather than paranormal so I suppose that is normal too.

Jean Eugene Roberts wrote:I just want to point out, to help people, that the dictionary definition of paranormal is 'Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation.' So it's not so much 'more than science' or in defiance of natural laws. It's just beyond our understanding.

THANK YOU!

This is quite close to what I've been saying for years and yet, magicians don't hear it... I use that qualifier in that magicians tend to adopt the mantel of disbelief along side their official atheist decoder ring within 3-5 years of adopting said identity (of being a magic buff). Once you learn to do a DL you instant know that all of life's great mysteries are nothing but tricks... yea, go with that one...

My perspective as to what being Psychic is, flows in parallel to that of my cohort in crime, the most reverend Mark Lewis. When it comes to the issue of Reading and the delusion of Cold Reading I have stated two things rather directly for years; Firstly, anyone can learn how to read the language of the cards, stones, bones or whatever you choose to work with but until you learn to do it as second nature, allowing your intuition to guide you, you're only a neophyte working from learned knowledge and translation. While the symbols, colors, and metaphors are in themselves, mini-scripts or associations that are woven into a fabric we call "A Reading" there is more to it all; Awareness.

Expanded Awareness or "Being Sensitive" to your environment is the other side to it all but likewise requires you, as the Reader or "Psychic" to understand the things being presented to you; colors, shapes, distance, position upon the horizon, direction of motion, etc. If that's not a form of science (admittedly, primitive science) I don't know what is; it is something that evolved as the result of trial & error as well as on going evaluation/refinement. Actions that are comparable to what researchers do when looking at things "scientifically"

Finally, when it comes to the issue of belief in things from that Hollywood frame of association, I go out of my way to help my patrons understand that Psychics in the real world work from a far more mundane level, introducing them to modes of far more logic centered thought. Amazingly, they seem to get it easier and quicker than the majority of magic inspired cynics do, even when I speak their language.

I'm rushed for time so I've got to run, but I do hope I've clarified a few things here.

I do agree with you but thank God you are rushed for time..................

I'm running with the idea that "paranormal" in this context means something along the same lines as "occult" or "esoteric" -- i.e. phenomena entirely outside the realm of scientific explanation.

I like to use this quotation from Wikipedia's entry on the occult: "Occultism is conceived of as the study of the inner nature of things, as opposed to the outer characteristics that are studied by science."

Science deals only with objectively observable and measurable things in the material world, and handles them through strict logic and reason and the laws of cause and effect. We've never yet found a better way to understand and manipulate the material world around us.

Occultism (which includes all religions) deals with things outside or beyond the scope of scientific investigation, mostly things outside or beyond the material world. It uses the tools of logic and reason, but not exclusively, recognising that there are areas where logic and cause-and-effect laws don't apply. Much of what it deals with is not objectively observable or measurable, being experienced only within the individual.

I'm proud to call myself both a scientist and an occultist. The two viewpoints deal with entirely different aspects of the universe. They're complementary, not opposed.

Here's an example:
Scientific view: Mars is the fourth planet of our solar system, on average 230 million km from the Sun, and about half the radius of Earth. It is a rocky planet with a thin atmosphere consisting mainly of carbon dioxide. Although dry and geologically dead now, it bears evidence of extensive water and geological activity in the past. Mars can be explored and further understood by sending robot probes or human astronauts through space and landing them on the surface.
Esoteric view: The planet Mars, named after the Roman god of war, is symbolic of a complex system of basic forces or energies that could be described as warrior attributes. These include aggression, assertiveness, competition, confidence, the ego, and impulsive action. Mars forces can be explored and further understood by contemplation, meditation, pathworking (a form of imaginative meditation), or revelations given to the individual by more advanced entities.

I find it interesting that bmat voted no when I first met him wandering round a psychic fair in Canada.

A boy can change his mind, can't he? I know I did.

Mr_Grue wrote:A boy can change his mind, can't he? I know I did.

That's why science beats dogma EVERY time.

mark lewis wrote:I find it interesting that bmat voted no when I first met him wandering round a psychic fair in Canada.

I voted no because the question did not make any sense to me. I don't think paranormal has anything to do with psychic ability. I do believe that certain people have a heightened sense of observation? the world around them? Really good social workers but don't really want to go take the time to get a degree?

As for the question, do I believe that somebody can move an object with their minds? No. Do I believe in ghosts? No. Do I want to? Absolutly. Will I argue the point that there are no ghosts? No. How the hell do I know? I also don't believe in an afterlife. When you are done you are done. Can I prove it? No. It is only a belief and like ghosts I hope to hell I am wrong. And unlike others I don't believe my beliefs are facts. They are my beliefs from my observations.

Bob Farrell, that some of you may know, he was written up in the Pallbarers (forgive my spelling please) Used to try to convince me he was psychic, that he could tell me what I'm thinking. That I could think of a number and he will know what the number is. He started the debates not me. I challenged him. I told him I would count the cash in my cash registar, if he could tell me how much cash was in the machine then he could have the cash. Very simple. I count, I think of the number, I could even write it down. All he had to do was tell me the number and it was all his. The response? "Oh I'd be happy too, I charge 250.00 a session" Fine Bob. I'll give you the 250.00 but I want a guarantee. I'll pay extra for the guarantee. I'll give you an extra hundred dollars for that gurantee. You name the number if it is correct you get the 350.00 and everything in the cash drawer. You can't name it I get my money back. the response? "NO, I charge 250.00 that is my fee regardless of the outcome.

Now I know your arguments about how you deserve the money up front. But if you are going to make statements like the one above be prepared to back it up. I know the next argument. "I don't have to prove anything to anybody" You are correct, you don't! But, just because you say it exists doesn't make it so.

Do I think there is a place for psychics, Yes, but I really don't like the term, I think the term implies more than it is.

I will give you this. The term psychics is a whole lot better than the term mentalist. At least the psychic doing a card reading is not performing a magic trick and denying it.

I can go on. but I won't mainly because I hate posts that are this long and wordy.

The Poll results as of a few minutes ago were:

Yes. 21% [ 9 ]
I'm not sure. 7% [ 3 ]
No. 70% [ 29 ]

Total Votes : 41

As the question has been well and truly answered, as well as tending to go off at a bit of a tangent, I reckon we're all done here.