talkmagic.co.uk

Hi everyone - been a while!
I've recently laid my hands on a Dagger Chest and am planning on incorporating it into my band's act.
The hope was that I could pick a random victim from the audience - but, having tried it out a couple of times on my poor girlfriend, I can see potential for this not being entirely safe - unless my girlfriend has an unusually-shaped head!

I've found it's necessary for her to have a little idea what's coming, and make a few minor adjustments to her position.
Yet the chest is sold on the basis you can use an audience member, which would be the ideal for me.

I'm not much of a fan of this particular illusion, but it should work well in the context of the song.
So any performance tips very much appreciated!

It's a Repro Magic Deluxe, by the way.

ok.. first Done correctly it's as good a small Ilusion as you can get.


Secondly, i find that It's 100% safe to use on any member of the audience, providing you remember these important things. Firstly you instruct your helper to sit absolutly still.. impress on them that this is really important.

secondly, you chose somebody that doesnt have masses of hair. by that i mean no huge perms, or really long hair, because you can pull the hair when you push in the rear daggers.

Also.. the reason you ask them to sit perfectly still, is so that you can manipulate the casket backwards and forwards, around their head.
This way you move the box forward, and away from their face at the start.. you do what you have to do, and put the downward dagger in first.
then move the chest backwards. This brings there nose up against the door. this is when you slip in the rear blades. you can then shove any bladed in, in any order knowing that they are going in, well away from them, safely.

once you have displayed the inside, you remove the blades in reverse order, once again moving teh box backwards and forwards, to avoid the blades comming in contact with the helper.

Once again... Never ask the helper to move.. move the box around them.. one simple instruction of sit still can be remembered.. particually if you flash the blades as you say it.

Is it just the Head Box or does it have the Tripod stand as well?

I use to make those things along with some other "Illusionettes" as they were known... wonderful bits that have gone ignored for much of the past 15 or so years

Many thanks for that Dale - I do think the whole thing will become a lot easier if the subject sits on a chair.

The preference in my case is usually for standing because these are rock gigs, usually in pubs, so the audience are all standing too, on the same level.
Having said that, if the on-stage action takes place a little lower down, it just encourages people to come to the front, which is always good!

I guess my slight negativity towards the trick is based on You Tube - I've just not seen it done well or convincingly yet. It looks a little..obvious. But I'll work on that.

Craig, no, there's no tripod. Although it came with two bases, one of which has a tripod hole and seems to be designed for younger heads.

I'd love any more recommendations for "llusionettes" to incorporate into the show - it's becoming a bit of a trademark!

(so far, the average gig incorporates knife-thru-arm, fickle fire, needle-thru-arm, Black Hart's Slasher, Knight Sword-thru-neck, a guillotine and, just to lighten the mood, D-Lites)

I performed this in my stage shows back in Jersey some 18 odd years ago - it's a cracking illusion and you will have a lot of fun with it.

If you use your own assistant you can do a lovely head twist effect at the start of your rountine.

One word of caution - if you use a member of the audience think about people who have problems in enclosed spaces.

richard_kingstone wrote:I performed this in my stage shows back in Jersey some 18 odd years ago - it's a cracking illusion and you will have a lot of fun with it.

If you use your own assistant you can do a lovely head twist effect at the start of your rountine.

One word of caution - if you use a member of the audience think about people who have problems in enclosed spaces.

Yep! I've seen that go a bit ugly...

The best rule is to do some pre-show scouting; find someone that you know ahead of time, has no problem with such confinement. In truth though, using your own assistant is always best.

I love the idea of the head twister addition... it might be interesting to develop a complete "Torture" box in which you incorporate ALL of the classic head box effects... Twisting Head, Dagger Chest, Head Cremation, etc. I'd think you could even do a variant to the Andre Kole Head Slider...

It would be fun, developing a 21st century version to this classic.

Heh, yeah - there are plenty of willing volunteers among our regulars so that shouldn't be problem. My guinea pig girlfriend IS claustrophobic, mind, and has only made it to the end once.

The instruction notes I got with this chest are awful, by the way, not that this is really a problem.

But there are more holes than daggers. Would you chaps recommend using the middle ones (right at the side of the head) at all?
I only ask because, on all the clips I've seen, sticking the dagger there just doesn't look that impressive, because of the angle.

Thanks so much for input by the way - I love this forum and would contribute more if I didn't feel such a rank novice alongside you lot!

oh yes. Those middle holes are for the more important daggers that go at an angle, in front of the thingy. If you have more holes than daggers.. you need to find teh other daggers. Sacrifice two from behind the head, and have then up front.

With respect. I don't like the large illusions for the most part. And Illusions like the dagger head chest are the reasons why. I know it is just me, but they don't make sense.

victims head goes into a chest. Swords are pushed into the chest, chest is opened to reveal the swords have indeed gone through the chest but the head is gone! So what is the point of pushing the swords through the chest if the head vanished to begin with? Yeah I've heard, part of the mystery is 'where did the head go?" but then I go back to the swords, why have them if the head isn't there? It would make more sense if when the chest is open the swords are going through the head. But then why the box? Or why not put the head in the box, and then just open it and the head is gone? Then why use a chest at all? Why not just vanish a head in a paper bag? (yes, I know, that trick has been done).

I know, if these are they types of questions I ask, why would I lose a card in a deck of cards only to find it again? And why on earth would I turn a bill into a larger bill only to make it small again, (for the record I don't do that) but I understand the inherent problems in magic. If your are going to fly, why would you walk anywhere? Oh yeah, we can't fly it is all entertainment.

Okay I've talked myself into a circle. But I still don't like the dagger head chest, hell why not add a little fire into the mix? Oh yeah, that has been done with the "fire Dagger Head Chest" Still I don't like it for the same reasons.

Okay venting over, go ahead and tell me why my feelings for the dagger head chest is wrong.

The Head Box/Illusionette type systems became popular after the war so that magicians could present something that looked like the classic Sword Box (for example) in a more intimate setting at close range. Over time the convenience of these small props attracted the birthday performers and as such they evolved into "stock" bits of equipment for a number of decades.

There is a variation to the Dagger Chest in which the head vanishes and you can wave your hand to the rear of the box to prove it... oddly, it was not nearly as intriguing or popular as the Dagger Chest/Arrow Head or any number of other names for the same effect we have out there... I've even seen it done with big Q-Tips.

This type of magic goes waaaaay back in time when it comes to magic history and the act of mutilating folk... we've done it for more than a few hundred years to humans as well as livestock; the Inquisition being one source of inspiration in latter times but mastery of life over death was the original impetus... if such an effect were found in the days of Egypt's glory or in the hands of a shaman, it would be to prove the miracle worker's greatness... how he/she could escape the threat presented by the daggers.

The bottom line is that when you look at these effects in this perspective, understanding the evolution of such, allows them to make a bit more "sense'. When it comes to the audience, it might be wise to somehow convey some aspect of this history, be it from the stage as you're about to do it or after...or even in some show related literature. ???

Craig Browning wrote:The Head Box/Illusionette type systems became popular after the war so that magicians could present something that looked like the classic Sword Box (for example) in a more intimate setting at close range. Over time the convenience of these small props attracted the birthday performers and as such they evolved into "stock" bits of equipment for a number of decades.

There is a variation to the Dagger Chest in which the head vanishes and you can wave your hand to the rear of the box to prove it... oddly, it was not nearly as intriguing or popular as the Dagger Chest/Arrow Head or any number of other names for the same effect we have out there... I've even seen it done with big Q-Tips.

This type of magic goes waaaaay back in time when it comes to magic history and the act of mutilating folk... we've done it for more than a few hundred years to humans as well as livestock; the Inquisition being one source of inspiration in latter times but mastery of life over death was the original impetus... if such an effect were found in the days of Egypt's glory or in the hands of a shaman, it would be to prove the miracle worker's greatness... how he/she could escape the threat presented by the daggers.

The bottom line is that when you look at these effects in this perspective, understanding the evolution of such, allows them to make a bit more "sense'. When it comes to the audience, it might be wise to somehow convey some aspect of this history, be it from the stage as you're about to do it or after...or even in some show related literature. ???

Thanks, I always preach, Know your history! and that is the reason why. Now it makes a lot more sense to me. If it was conveyed during an act, I agree it would make it better.

I love watching Ricky Jay with his cutting to the aces, his cups and balls as it really is a history lesson (it could be made up for all I know or care) but it all makes sense because of the history he gives while performing. I've always said that props are great, but they have to make sense even if you tell a story about what happened to you while you were abducted by aliens, and this is what they did. Give a reason, build it and they will come...

Thanks for the perspective.

Performed it for the first time last weekend and it went down really well!

So, many thanks for all the tips - very useful and much appreciated.

Craig Browning wrote:This type of magic goes waaaaay back in time when it comes to magic history and the act of mutilating folk... we've done it for more than a few hundred years to humans as well as livestock; the Inquisition being one source of inspiration in latter times but mastery of life over death was the original impetus... if such an effect were found in the days of Egypt's glory or in the hands of a shaman, it would be to prove the miracle worker's greatness... how he/she could escape the threat presented by the daggers.

Here's an excerpt from a tale from ancient Egypt:

...Next Prince Hordjedef stood before the king, and said, "Your Majesty has heard tales regarding the wonders performed by magicians in other days, but I can bring forth a worker of marvels who now lives in the kingdom. His name is Djedi, and his years are one hundred and ten. Each day he eats a haunch of beef and five hundred loaves of bread, and drinks a hundred jugs of beer. He can strike off the head of a living creature and restore it again, he can make a lion follow him tamely, and he knows the secrets of the habitation of Thoth, which Your Majesty has desired to know."

King Khufu said, "Go and find this man for me." ...[Hordjedef sailed southwards and found him asleep at his home.] Hordjedef assisted Djedi to rise up, and took his arm to help him to the ship. He sailed away with the prince, and in a second ship were his assistants and magic books.

Djedi came and saluted the king, who said, "Why have I not seen you before?"

The old man replied, "He who is called, comes. You have sent for me and I am here."

"It is told," said Khufu, "that you can restore the head that is taken from a living creature."

"I can indeed, Your Majesty," said Djedi.

The king said, "Then let a prisoner be brought forth and beheaded."

"I would rather it were not a man," said Djedi.

A duck was brought forth and its head was cut off, and the head was put to the right of the room and the body to the left. Djedi spoke words of power, and the head and body came together, and the duck rose up and quacked loudly. Then the same was done with a goose. King Khufu then caused a cow to be brought in, and its head was cut off. Djedi restored it to life again and caused it to follow him.

If you are using your own assistant then standing is fine. I've even done it with one of mine kneeling--him not me.
If its a volunteer then sitting is a must.
I have only ever used a male for this. Ladies's hairstyles ruffled up, especially on a night out, can be more than upsetting for a woman.
It's another reason why I hate magicians who have a woman kneel, often in an unsuitable frock, for the Head Chopper. Kalanag had the right idea, with a small stand attached to the chopper for Gloria to kneel on.

Always found that you put in the top 3 daggers first, beginning with the centre one that holds the gubbins in place.My Main dagger had that diamante, stick on paper, glued on it to make it stand out and thus being a shade thicker/wider, held the gubbins really securely.

Then I always inserted the back ones. This seemed to give the victim a sense of security as the daggers lay against the back of their heads, almost as a support. And they could relax from the thought of daggers inserting near the face.

Finally if you haven't got one, buy or make a Jack Hughes simple stand.
This displays the daggers in a large fan shape, making it quite a showy piece.And also puts the daggers in an easy to obtain position.

Allen Tipton

The dagger chest is a super trick.

A friend of mine used real sharp kitchen knives for the ones at the front of the box and blunt ones for the others. However he did not use this trick on a member of the public, just his own assistant. Cos the knives were sharp he had fun hacking up cucumbers prior to some of the blades going in...it was hilarious

It also cost him a fortune at the kitchen store!

Peter