talkmagic.co.uk

Hey folks,

Despite being a long way off performing coin magic for people, I just bought an expanded shell to play with. I see it is something that needs plenty of practice to get right - which I'm happy enough with (I'd be in the wrong art if I wasn't keen on practice!) - but it's left me wondering a couple of things.

Firstly, there's a wee bit of movement if I rub the shell and coin between thumb and index finger. They move just enough to make a clicking noise. Now, I'm guessing that's pretty normal as I tried a tighter shell in the shop and it was VERY hard to get the coin out. I just thought I'd check if it IS normal though. Is it?

Secondly, and this is the main one... it's not as deep as I thought it would be. The nice man in the shop assured me that's just the way they are, and I'm inclined to believe him, but I'm starting to wonder if I may be missing something.
I know the expanding process makes it a bit shallower, and I don't expect to be able to hand it out for inspection, but to me it looks screamingly obvious that there's more than 1 coin. I know "inside knowledge" can kinda ruin the look of tricks, gaffs and the like... but while I don't expect someone to call me on exactly what it is, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they saw the edge and said "there's 2 coins there".
Any input here?

I've tried to attach a photo to this so people can see what's I mean but it won't go.
(jpeg of 140KB)

The use of shells is not so much to "hide a coin" but simply "remove it from sight". Allow me to explain what I mean. There should be no point in your routine where you have a shell in place and you say "here I have but one coin, please inspect it as close as you can to verify." What you should be doing is quite freely handling that shell on a coin as if it was one coin between your fingers, turning it over on the palm of your hand etc, giving enough "proof" that it's just one coin until the moment arrives.
Don't worry about the small amount of edge visible under the shell. The coin won't be stationary for long enough that anybody can notice.

It's my experience that expanded shells do vary hugely in that respect - you don't mention which denomination coin it is - I have found that the very thickness of £2 coins, for example, make the extra thickness more noticeable, whereas the walking liberty halves I use in day to day work are extremely deceptive - but even with the really good ones it's good practice to routine handlings to avoid people looking directly at the edge of the coin - as Arkesus says it's a holdout tool, much like a TT, used to complement sleight of hand, so a lot of it is about your mindset as much as your handling.

Thanks guys. I still can't get the pictures to attach to a post so it looks like we're going to be words-only here...


Arkesus - thanks for that explanation. I saw some gaffs in the shop that genuinely did "hide" a coin... to the point where even knowing it was there didn't make it much easier to see.
I'm certainly not expecting to be able to hand over a coin+shell together and have them pass inspection as a single coin... but my concern was that looking at it even briefly might be obvious that it's not a single coin even when just turning over to show the head (it's a "tails" shell). I know this could be just that knowing it is there is making it obvious, but not having the handling for shells down it's hard for me to see how it becomes less obvious. Particularly the extra edge visible from the heads side looks glaring to me... or does normal shell handling not show that side of the coin?


Shaun - it's a (copper core) Kennedy half dollar. I'm playing with halves and pre-decimal English pennies at the moment while I learn the slights... I'll move onto Sterling when I'm a bit more capable of palming smaller coins without looking like I have cramp.
That and I'm less likely to spend my coins and gaffs if they aren't accepted as currency here!
The shell is slightly thinner than the regular coin (down to the expansion process, I believe) and covers roughly half of the thickness of the coin when placed over it. Is that about normal?

Your shell is normal. Why on earth are you turning the coin over. The audience already knows that there is a head on one side and a tails on the other. Even if they are not aware they know they are different you don't have to prove it. They are not even aware that a shell exists (unless you point it out to them through your handling). The shell is never the focus.

A quick example. Put the shell and the coin together and put them where ever you are going to put them before you begin the routine, A pocket is usually a good place.

Take out the two as one, (nested together) People ask me why I use American half dollars for magic At this point you have removed the half dollar from your pocket and display it to the audience, just hold it between your fingertips don't point at it. This is natural, if you were not holding a gimmick you wouldn't draw undue attention to it, so why do so now? I use half dollars because they have a strange property At this point the half dollar goes flat onto your palm. and you are not holding it at eye level, your spectator is looking down at the coin. If you keep the coin warm curl your fingers around the coin hiding it in your fist body heat does wonders on the silver content of the half dollar turn your fist knuckles to the floor, fingertips to yourself, Reach into your fist with your other hand with with your thumb and first finger and remove the shell leaving the half still hidden in your hand and continue to hold your fist loosly (I know its odd but it is only for a second) Ahh yes, nice and warm now, I'll put the warm coin in my pocket drop shell in pocket obviously only showing the one side, at least I hope that is obvious. and it travels back to the hand open your fist to show the coin still in the hand.

This is just very basic, but it does show you how a shell is used. You end clean, the audience never questioned the coin, (which if you want you can now casually give to them to hold while you get your deck of cards).

Here is my question to you. Why did you go out and purchase a shell? Do you have a specific effect in mind? If so just follow that routine. Did you just buy one for the heck of it? If so can you give me some money? Learn some basics first, go out and perform a few simple effects so you will understand how to handle objects and people, if you had done that you wouldn't be asking the question you are now asking as you will know that it is no big deal.

If you really want to work with shells, go and buy Hopping Halves. It is a wonderful routine, uses a bunch of gimmicks that are wonderfully made if you purchase the Johnson Hopping halves anyway. And will teach you a lot about handling gimmicks. Or start even simpler with penny to dime.

Do you have Mark Wilson's Course In Magic? If not go buy it right now. I'll wait....okay you back? flip to the coin section, practice and go out and perform. Relax, have fun and don't worry so much. You will be fine.

Psst....your shell is perfectly normal, don't need a picture.

Yep, I'd say that bmat is right, your shell sounds perfectly normal to me.

However, I think the problem is what you expect it to do - you need to think of it as a utility tool like a double backed card, or a marked deck - a shell won't do a coin routine for you like a Scotch & Soda gaff, which I suspect is what you're unconsciously comparing it with. Looking at your previous posts it looks to me like you're just getting to grips with coin magic so you'll probably find it a tool without a real purpose for a while yet - you're probably going to need to get the hang of a good classic palm first, for example - but you'll find any number of routines that use a shell - check out Ammar's Shadow Coins, for example, or any of the variations of the Dingle/Kaps/Roth Coins Across, which is probably the routine they get used for more than any other.
The thing is that it's more like using a shell in a billiard ball routine, really, in that you can do an eight ball production without using a shell, but using one judiciously can put you one ahead at key points in the routine. You will still have to steal the other balls and manipulate them properly and you definitely need to watch your angles on the shell work, but it is a utility holdout that can improve a routine immensely - the same holds true with a shell coin.......
You might want to check out the L&L dvd on the subject of shells to see what you can do with it - it's probably cheaper than buying the shell was!

Shaun McCree wrote:Yep, I'd say that bmat is right, your shell sounds perfectly normal to me.

However, I think the problem is what you expect it to do - you need to think of it as a utility tool like a double backed card, or a marked deck - a shell won't do a coin routine for you like a Scotch & Soda gaff, which I suspect is what you're unconsciously comparing it with. Looking at your previous posts it looks to me like you're just getting to grips with coin magic so you'll probably find it a tool without a real purpose for a while yet - you're probably going to need to get the hang of a good classic palm first, for example - but you'll find any number of routines that use a shell - check out Ammar's Shadow Coins, for example, or any of the variations of the Dingle/Kaps/Roth Coins Across, which is probably the routine they get used for more than any other.
The thing is that it's more like using a shell in a billiard ball routine, really, in that you can do an eight ball production without using a shell, but using one judiciously can put you one ahead at key points in the routine. You will still have to steal the other balls and manipulate them properly and you definitely need to watch your angles on the shell work, but it is a utility holdout that can improve a routine immensely - the same holds true with a shell coin.......
You might want to check out the L&L dvd on the subject of shells to see what you can do with it - it's probably cheaper than buying the shell was!

Oooh, excellent post. I wish I had thought of the 'what you expect from it angle' actually I did think of that, I just said it in a lot more words, and confused the situation more than necessary.

actually I did think of that, I just said it in a lot more words, and confused the situation more than necessary.

lol!
That's usually my problem!

Wow... thanks very much for taking the time to reply. I've got a ton of work on so I'll try to keep this brief but I'd like to respond.

Firstly, I'm a MASTER at taking a simple point and making it complicated (though I'm not incapable of making complicated things simple either) so I appreciate the effort you put in and also see the underlying point.

So... what I expect of the shell is pretty much what has been suggested. It's a tool to give the impression of a coin, not one that I can hand out and have inspected or hlod up clearly to be seen AS a coin.
My concern (and I'm happy to agree that it's probably down to a lack of skill in handling shells) is that it looked so obvious to me that it was more than one coin that I wondered if I had a normal shell that would be convincing with the correct handling, or if it was a dud.
I'm certainly not comparing it with Scotch and Soda type tools. I know it's to give the impression of a coin and not to *be* a coin.

So, why did I buy it?
In the main it was so I could start learning some shell based tricks. Some of the mentioned Coins Across ones will feature, and I'm thinking of buying Homer Liwag's Coin One DVD at some point too. They are beyond my abilities at the moment, but it's not too early to start putting them and the skills they need into practice.

The other reason was to actually learn to handle one. I've found that some moves (classic palm especially) are a good bit harder with a shell than with a coin - I find the open edges catch a bit and make it harder to move - for that alone I'm glad I have it to play with.

Palming a shell is not easy, nor have I ever had to do that, finger palm is easier for a shell. Again my advice goes to learning some basic moves. I find effects like coins across without a shell work better for me. Again that is strictly a personal preferance. Why no shell for me? Because I am too lazy to carry one around. I used one in coins across for years because there is less slight of hand involved and the effect is more visible when you use a shell. Because you can openly show four coins (three and a shell) in your open palm. Then close your fist and using no moves open your hand to show three coins. Really is amazing.

However experience has taught me that while it is indeed more visible as described above. The audience really doesn't see the difference in what I do now. I show four coins on the table. One by one I place the coins in my left hand. When I open my left hand one of the coins vanishes and now appears in my right hand. Of course a false transfer is involved and technically speaking they never saw four coins in my hand. But they believed they saw four coins. So what is the difference? the difference for me is a false transfer is easier to work with than a shell and I have the added bonus of not having to carry around yet another piece of krap in my pocket.

I learned the hard way that if I am going to use an effect with shells I am probably going to buy the effect on its own and it comes with the necessary tools, such as Hopping Halves.

Of course at this point I have to say I have a large ziplock bag with all kinds of gimmicked coin stuff. Most magicians become collectors of stuff. And a shell is a wonderful tool.

To get back to my original point, I think it would be wise to first spend the time learning basic coin slights. A good retention vanish, a good false transfer, the Bobo Switch, work on a good finger palm, ramsey subtly, and of course a good classic palm. These will also aid you in working with other objects.

My other suggestion is to learn effects not method. In other words find an effect you like and learn that effect and all it entails. If it requires a classic palm, learn it, if it requires a shell, buy one. But learn the effect that way you can go out and perform something and actually learn to perform (that is the important part) If you just start by learning method in two years you will know all kinds of method but have yet to perform a magic effect. And by that time it is too late, as you will be in the habit of not performing. Get out there now and start to perform.

On the other hand you may want to be an armchair magician and learn the methods and maybe work on a routine but never really go out and show it to people. And you know what? Nothing wrong with that either. It is all about what you are happy doing in your time on this planet.

Some great advice contained in this thread.

Rob - quite right. I'm very glad I posted this thread because the advice given has been really top notch.

bmat - the visual nature of the shell in coins across is really why I've got this and plan to learn to use it. The one I really like is "This next one is really visible, did you see it go? Yes? Because it's not gone yet." I think it's in the Coin One routine and I'm pretty sure I've seen Tommy Wonder do it too.

Good point about it probably not making much difference to the experience the spectators have of a trick. Shelled or otherwise, done right any routine should blow minds.

I'm not so sure I'll end up with a bag full of unused effects and tools, partly because I'm just a bit too tight for all that.
I thought long and hard before I even coughed up the few bob this shell cost me.

As for the advice in your 5th and 6th paragraphs. That's my approach at the moment and I thank you for offering the advice as I was wondering if the approach was a good one. I really have no desire to sit and learn every technique under the sun and still have no tricks to show for all the effort.

I already show the odd bit here and there, though at the moment I tend not to as I feel it'd be better if I had a couple of backup tricks to fulfil the "do it again" requests (the old chestnut of saying "OK" and then doing something different) or "let's see another one!". As for being an armchair magician... only while I get to that stage. I'm learning this so I can do it. Purely for kicks, I expect, I don't have any plans to make a living from magic - but personally I wouldn't bother learning it all just to know how to do it. The art truly lies in the performance (in my humble and rather inexperienced opinion) and it's that I really enjoy pursuing.

I like the feeling when I nail a trick right on the money and even the observant people in the room come up blank when trying to figure it out. Not that I like to leave them stumped for the sake of it... I like to leave them smiling, and if they are laughing - all the better. I don't think I'd get that so much sat on the couch performing to myself.

One question for more experienced coin workers...

How do you carry the set of coins for a shelled coin across routine? Just loose in your pocket? If so, how do you work out quickly enough which coin has the shell on it?

Rob

I'm certainly not experienced, but I carry in one of two ways. Either in separate pockets so know which is shelled as its always in the same place (I may not perform, but I carry my coins to play with when I have a chance) or in my wallet, in which case I see by looking which is which. Dunno how performance practical that is, but it works for now and I try to practice my tricks from the initial position where the coins, cards or whatever are in their normal place so I have to practice getting them out too.

Robmonster wrote:One question for more experienced coin workers...
How do you carry the set of coins for a shelled coin across routine? Just loose in your pocket? If so, how do you work out quickly enough which coin has the shell on it?Rob

Hi Rob. I carry my coins in what is known as a coin pouch. When this is opened and tilted, the coins slide out onto a sort of tray. However there is another compartment which has a flap which i tuck in. In this compartment i have my shell with a genuine half inside. When I open the pouch and require the shell I simply squeeze the sides slightly and the gimmick slides out onto the tray at the same time as the regular coins come into view, landing nicely on top.

There is a description of the coin pouch in John Bannons Impossibilia, along with ideas for effects with it.

jim