talkmagic.co.uk

Mandrake wrote:On Devil's Picturebook, Deren Brown explains the research and sweat which went into trying to achieve an effect he wanted. Sleights, memorising and so on were all tried but in the end he just used a gaff deck.

Damn you, you beat me to quoting about this !!

I couldn't agree more though, there are times and places for props and trick decks, if you can perform a trick well, and the end effect is the same, I don't see the issue (the "unshuffled" example is proof of this).

In my opinion, the problem arises when someone / for some reason a trick deck exists or is used out of LAZINESS or because someone wants to "do a magic trick" but cant be bothered to learn a trick ... I have seen a svengali deck, force deck, striper deck or even a marked deck come under HEAVY audience pressure to be viewed, handled or touched "Can I see them" etc (and I dont mean in the same way that when you do am amb card routine someone says "wow, let me see those cards", I mean like "well, I THINK its a trick deck, I'll see how he/she reacts when I want to see the cards")

basically, I think its been summed up already - if you are SERIOUSLY worried about trick decks, you either have a bit of magicians guilt, you have been caught out before (which implies you're not doing the trick well enough) OR (and no offence is implied here) you have a bit of an ego RE: gaffs and trick deck :S

Dan

NB: I am a regular user of tossed out decks, MP Decks, ID's, Gaffs, misprints, ESP Decks, Marked Decks, Stacks and various other "trick decks" ... business keeps on rolling in and I've never been caught out (touch wood) ... BUT I can perform a whole routine of tricks with any borrowed deck, heck, even 3 borrowed cards I could entertain for a few mins

In various ways these posts and threads have all included the nitty gritty, the difference between doing tricks and performing magic. The first comes out of the box, the second comes out of your brain, your soul, your heart. Gaffed and ungaffed cards can be used in both cases but, IMHO, the way they are used in the second category is what it's all about.

...Also see Guy Hollingworth's talk at EMC 7 Things Ive Learnt From a Packet Trick.

Lesson number 1 - Its fine to use gaffs to make an effect cleaner.

The plot is the thing, the means of doing the trick is an entirely secondary affair.
If it is found that the use of a fake or a gimmick renders the plot more convincing to the spectators there should be no hesitation in using it. J.N. Hilliard

Demitri wrote:Who cares about those rare times?

Does anyone ask to inspect David Copperfield's whatever he's using at the time? Do people ask Paul Daniels to let them check out his cups in the middle of his routine? No - and they shouldn't be asking you.

Just because your stage is a table, and you're not a Vegas headliner, or the like, doesn't mean you deserve any less respect than the top performers in the field. An audience member asking once may be fine (though I disagree), like you said - and it's just as fine to refuse that request.

The only time "go ahead, check it out" should really be a part of your routine, is if you script it in, yourself. Any other time, and you risk losing control of your audience. You also put yourself in hot water if, somewhere down the road, you are asked to allow examination of something you absolutely can't allow. Now, instead of protecting the secret of one effect, you've potentially ruined the strength of the rest.

Absolutely agree.

mobi wrote:In my humble opinion the majority of people I've met who have a thing against trick decks usually have a bit too much of an ego.

They spent months and years learning sleights and so when someone tells them they can replicate the same effect with a gaff/gimmick/prop they get offended. The effort they expended in learning is essentially negated and someone who has spent considerably less effort in practising could re-create the same effect, which to a lay audience looks exactly the same.

Granted, if you are a strolling magician the amount of trick decks you can carry in your pocket becomes a factor.

I think the whole argument is pretty stupid really as laymen have no idea how a trick is done, so why on earth does it matter whether you use a gaff or use a sleight...?

Magical_Trevor wrote:
In my opinion, the problem arises when someone / for some reason a trick deck exists or is used out of LAZINESS or because someone wants to "do a magic trick" but cant be bothered to learn a trick ... I have seen a svengali deck, force deck, striper deck or even a marked deck come under HEAVY audience pressure to be viewed, handled or touched "Can I see them" etc (and I dont mean in the same way that when you do am amb card routine someone says "wow, let me see those cards", I mean like "well, I THINK its a trick deck, I'll see how he/she reacts when I want to see the cards")

basically, I think its been summed up already - if you are SERIOUSLY worried about trick decks, you either have a bit of magicians guilt, you have been caught out before (which implies you're not doing the trick well enough) OR (and no offence is implied here) you have a bit of an ego

As I say I am speaking from opinions of personal experience. Yes the amount of decks you have on you are an issue, but you can always just get more pockets (I have a 76 pocketed Waistcoat, not that I use it much). And I honestly have nothing against them, not really. But as I say, speaking from experience, as someone who does get paid to work in pubs and clubs doing close up magic, working with adults who can get somewhat drunk, I have met people who are absolutely lovely to perform to, until the end of the trick, and some of these have actually stolen cards from my hands before, to check if it is a trick deck. Also when I am at university and people ask me to do tricks, it does seem that most of them have some experience with some form of trick decks (usually just marked and svengali though). Also some proffessional card players it seems do just LOVE to look through the cards under great scrutiny. But I guess it's the crowds more than anything as to what you do. But as I say from experience I like to keep to normal cards. And no I don't have an ego, it's others that pay me, not myself. And just because an audience doesn't believe it's a real deck, doesn't mean that you are doing it wrong. Think of that as a compliment, because they think that what you are doing is IMPOSSIBLE with a normal deck, which is what a magician is more or less supposed to be doing.

grant_m23 wrote:Trick decks are as necessary as magic tricks themselves

That could be true yes. But even the magic tricks themselves aren't completely necessary. The tricks are merely the seeds of the magic, the memory of the audience is the sun and water. The real magic happens when the trick is re-told.

I do remember one event where I was using a s*****d and m*****d deck to good effect and one gentleman asked me if I was using a Svengali deck. "What is that?", I feigned. "Look it up," he replied. I was glad to appear ignorant