talkmagic.co.uk

daleshrimpton wrote:

Not all the material out there is worth wasting your time and money on...

Agreed. But an important part of learning, is discovering the crapp, and spotting why its crapp. plus, whats not good for one person, could become a miracle in other hands.

Discovering the cr@p can be an expensive business. I'm sick and tired of buying the latest over-hyped, hardbacked glossy volume (at £30-40 a pop) only to discover I've wasted my time and money.

On the relativity thing, some material is objectively better, regardless of the performer.

daleshrimpton wrote:Oh, and let us not forget John Scarne, who is a major influence on Bill Malone. along with Ed Marlo of course.

QFT. (quoted for Truth)!

Benjamin_Jones wrote: However, apart from the ambitious card routine not that impressed with any of the tricks in the book.

have a look at do as i do, now you see it, , cards across and a tipsy trick. i remember when i went to see jerry sadowitz everything he done was from this book, even the patter at times. theres also a self working four aces routine you can get the spectator to do themselfs (can't remember the name). If you read all of it you'll find somthing you can use or adapt.

In a way, part of the problem is precisely that there is a huge amount of card stuff, and a lot of it very good (also a lot that is less good, or merely repeating earlier works).

For a beginner, Card College is very good if you want more modern sleights and counts, but Royal Road is cheap (especially if you already own it). Mark Wilson is good for a real beginner.

One name that hasn't yet been mentioned is Nick Trost. He usually avoided unnecessarily difficult moves, but produced volumes of strong tricks.

Jason England put up a free thing on Theory11 (groan) about what to read. I found it rather informative.

http://www.theory11.com/tricks/what-to- ... ngland.php

cartorious wrote:I agree that some of the patter in RRTCM is a little dated, but the sleights/methods etc......are still as relevant today as they were 1000 years ago (or whenever the book was originally published).

Allez-oop!

im going through RRTCM now and yes its dated blah blah but the fundamentals are there. the sleights are great and its a good starting point in my opinion. if you're looking for something to learn and copy strait away maybie its not for you, however you could easily put your own stamp on it and bring it up to date. swap bits and pieces and make the tricks your own.

Yeah, I tend to agree. I think dismissing RRTCM as old and stuffy is like ignoring Shakespeare because "they talk all wordy" or getting into soul music but refusing to listen to James Brown because "the recordings are a bit crackly and thin".

To learn any craft or art you need to learn the evolution and that often involves learning what your contemporaries learned. I think forgetting the old and only focusing on the new will result in missing out on a lot. With anything.

SpareJoker wrote:Presentation cannot compensate for weak methods or effects. It does form a significant proportion of a routine I will grant you, but not 90%.

Weak methods? Or simple methods? There's a difference. Surely a weak method is one which doesn't work or one which arises suspicion. It doesn't have to be difficult. The simplest are often the best.

Derren Brown, in one of his card tricks, uses a one way force deck. It's a great trick because of his presentation.

The method is absolutely irrelevant unless it detracts from the trick. You should know that magic is gauged by the sense of wonder the audience feel, not how hard the method is.

SpareJoker wrote:DITCH ROYAL ROAD. It's stuffy, old and outdated

Where do you get all this stuff from? I'm working through it now and there's nothing outdated about it. I'm learning genuine skills at a very quick pace.

Laurence wrote:

SpareJoker wrote:Presentation cannot compensate for weak methods or effects. It does form a significant proportion of a routine I will grant you, but not 90%.

Weak methods? Or simple methods? There's a difference. Surely a weak method is one which doesn't work or one which arises suspicion. It doesn't have to be difficult.

As a general rule, when I write 'weak methods' I tend to mean 'weak methods'.

Laurence wrote:The simplest are often the best.

To which I would ask: 'best' for who? the performer? The audience do not care how difficult/ easy a trick is to perform. They only care about impact. The simplest tricks are often the simpest tricks, full stop.

Laurence wrote:The method is absolutely irrelevant unless it detracts from the trick. You should know that magic is gauged by the sense of wonder the audience feel, not how hard the method (or easy) it is.

(bold added) I don't understand your point. You say that 'method is irrelevant', then immediately back that up by saying 'unless it has an impact one the one thing that is pivotal in magic. It's either relevant or not!

Laurence wrote:

SpareJoker wrote:DITCH ROYAL ROAD. It's stuffy, old and outdated

Where do you get all this stuff from? I'm working through it now and there's nothing outdated about it. I'm learning genuine skills at a very quick pace.

I get it from reading RRCTM, then reading contemporary material (e.g. Card College) and comparing the two. As I mentioned previously, the writing is stuffy and outdated. It doesn't cover any of the major sleights created since the 40's.

chill out spare joker its just his opinion, as long as you enjoy learning and performing magic surely that's what matters. if everyone learnt from the same source things would get stale really quick.

The key to being a good magician is the presentation. There is no such thing as a bad trick. As Dunninger stated even nail through finger will suffice if you have some way of magnetising and hypnotising that audience. I suggest Spare Joker get to work on Nail Through Finger immediately.

For a beginner in Card Magic there is no better instruction that the Royal Road to Card Magic. I tried to read Card College but, no doubt because of my bias, I found it a little tedious. It is too big a book anyway. I am still trying to finish reading the Royal Road to Card Magic after 50 years. I am now up to the Routining Chapter. I am afraid I am a slow learner.

However, I did skip ahead a number of years ago and learn the three cards across in the book. I altered it slightly and it now creates a sensation. I do it close up and in the biggest theatres. I have even performed this trick in a circus ring of all places. It works well everywhere. And I learned it from the Royal Road.

I have performed Poker Player's Picnic before royalty. Again great reaction.

Tipsy trick is another one that I have performed in cabaret stand up situations. It works well providing the venue is not too big.

Some of the greatest card tricks of all time are in Royal Road to Card Magic. Self workers as well as moderate sleight of hand. It is a MISTAKE to be skilful beyond the bounds of necessity. Show me stronger tricks than Now You See It, Do as I Do, Design for Laughter and many, many more.

And you learn the real fundamentals of magic AND presentation in the Royal Road to Card Magic.

But I suppose no book can teach you the real secret of card magic and that is to manipulate the PEOPLE. Any fool can manipulate the cards and most fools do. You need far more than that.

I honestly believe that a weak trick is only a weak trick if you let be be. Take an effect from a book, look at it, think about it, learn it and then see if you can make it into something more. Weave a story around it, make it fun an engaging and even the simplest effect can be turned into something special. I only do three card effects and one of those is from RRTCM and one is from Mark Wilson, the other's my own version of Anniversary Waltz

oops, double post

gwilty wrote:chill out spare joker its just his opinion, as long as you enjoy learning and performing magic surely that's what matters. if everyone learnt from the same source things would get stale really quick.

Hey, I'm chill Joe. Just having a lively discussion. I have not insulted anyone, nor have I had to resort to ad homeneim attacks in order to try and bolster my position.

mark lewis wrote:Dearie me. This spare Joker chap is talking the biggest load of tosh I have ever read in my entire life. He must be a member of the magic cafe.

Well, I've not quite been banned as many times from The Big Green Monster as your august self...

mark lewis wrote:It is perfectly obvious to me that he is one of those dreadful finger flingers who equate digital gymnastics with being a good magician. I can assure him that I am one of the greatest card magicians in the world and naturally my word is gospel on these matters. Actually I am the GREATEST card magician in the world but I don't want to mention it in case I am thought to be immodest.

Part of the reason I am as good as I am is because of the Royal Road to Card Magic and do not hail from the West Midlands where you need an interpreter to figure out what the natives are saying. I still remember the first time I went to Birmingham and wondered if I needed to take a language course so that I could figure out what everyone was saying. I don't see how it is possible to pontificate about and present card magic when one cannot speak properly.

'Reverend' Lewis, you are a world-class wind-up merchant! (but you must have known I was going to say that!) I must admit, I always look forward to your posts in the Gospel section of MC, as you have a good knack at stirring up the hornets nest there
PS. I too am ordained, I'm a Pope of the Church of the Subgenius!

mark lewis wrote:The key to being a good magician is the presentation. There is no such thing as a bad trick.

Gotta disagree here. The sliding thumb is definitely a bad trick.

mark lewis wrote:As Dunninger stated even nail through finger will suffice if you have some way of magnetising and hypnotising that audience. I suggest Spare Joker get to work on Nail Through Finger immediately.

Yes, but it will only suffice if you have the requisite 'magnetism'. Without that, you are still left with a weak illusion.

mark lewis wrote:For a beginner in Card Magic there is no better instruction that the Royal Road to Card Magic. I tried to read Card College but, no doubt because of my bias, I found it a little tedious. It is too big a book anyway. I am still trying to finish reading the Royal Road to Card Magic after 50 years. I am now up to the Routining Chapter. I am afraid I am a slow learner.

I applaud your honesty in admitting that you have a bias (does this stem from your history as a Svengali pitchman?), but it does weaken your argument somewhat. When you say 'too big', do you mean physically, or are you saying that there is too much content?

mark lewis wrote:However, I did skip ahead a number of years ago and learn the three cards across in the book. I altered it slightly and it now creates a sensation. I do it close up and in the biggest theatres. I have even performed this trick in a circus ring of all places. It works well everywhere. And I learned it from the Royal Road.

I have performed Poker Player's Picnic before royalty. Again great reaction.

Tipsy trick is another one that I have performed in cabaret stand up situations. It works well providing the venue is not too big.

More than adequate evidence of your excellent showmanship, (which is well known!).

mark lewis wrote:Some of the greatest card tricks of all time are in Royal Road to Card Magic. Self workers as well as moderate sleight of hand. It is a MISTAKE to be skilful beyond the bounds of necessity. Show me stronger tricks than Now You See It, Do as I Do, Design for Laughter and many, many more.

Could you expand as to why you think it is a mistake to be skilful beyound the bounds of necessity? Let's face it, when performing those boundaries are apt to change, so it's always a good idea to have a little extra for when the need arises. And the need always arises. As for stronger tricks, off the top of my head: 'Ace In Pocket' (Scams & Fantasies with Cards, Ortiz), 'The Dream Card' (At The Card Table, Ortiz), 'Crazy Man's Handcuffs (Ammar handling).

mark lewis wrote:And you learn the real fundamentals of magic AND presentation in the Royal Road to Card Magic.

.. which is more than adequately covered in Card College Vol 2's section on theory (or did you not manage to get that far through the book?)

mark lewis wrote:But I suppose no book can teach you the real secret of card magic and that is to manipulate the PEOPLE. Any fool can manipulate the cards and most fools do. You need far more than that.

I can't disagree with that. One book that does go a long way to teaching how to manipulate people is 'Designing Miracles' (Darwin Ortiz).

It is FOOLISH to be skillful beyond the bounds of necessity and in fact it can make you a bad magician. I shall expand on the matter if I ever find time to do so. In fact a good card magician only needs about 5 moves. I can do more but that is perfectly acceptable since I am a genius of the first magnitude. But if I had to I am sure I could get almost the same results as I do now with a control, a force, a palm, the Glide and the double life. I will make one concession. The DL in the Royal Road to Card Magic is bloody awful so it would behoove the beginner to find another one.

And yes, I did read the waffle in Card College about presentation. I found it a trifle tedious to read so I got bored with it. I may try again another time to give it a fair trial.

As for the tricks described in Spare Joker's post I have no idea what they are since I never study tricks invented after 1954.

As for "designing miracles" I am afraid I didn't like it as much as Ortiz's other book Strong Magic which is excellent. However, even this book does not tell you how to manipulate people. And Darwin Ortiz himself did not particularly impress me when I saw him perform. I thought he should read his own book.