talkmagic.co.uk

Hey guys!

My parents really love my magic (As I always bother them when I have a move down). But recently my dad suggested a good question. Why don't I modernise and reshape an existing effect that is considerably old? What I mean is, I am trying to look into some archives of magic history / effects and modernise a trick that is quite considerable old and 'out dated'. Not for notice but for improving myself as a performer and providing something back into the community.

I was wondering if anyone has done this, or looked into archives? The central library couldn't help me, considering they have books which are 200 years old.

I'm in the Manchester area also, if there is any archive places that can hold such material, or any sources online.

Cheers guys.

Check out The Learned Pig Project - http://www.thelearnedpig.com.pa/home.html

Not sure if it's still being added to, but they have quite a selection of digitised stuff which goes pretty far back (and it's free!). Lybrary.com also has a fair bit of older stuff (and their magic database search facility is awesome)

Not sure i get why your asking this. After all, 99% of new magic, is based on old magic. I know most of my releases have been anyway.

The difference is, most new magic inventors cant be arsed to give the older creators the proper acreditaion.
the right way to do this, is to invent something, then ask people , people who know what they are talking about, if the idea is new.
If its new.. great.. if its as old as the hills, still great, because you can then tick that box, and credit the originator.

and if you dont.. believe me, you will find the quickest way to loose magical friends you will ever find.

http://conjuringarts.org/

Ask Alexander, at the link above, is an online research tool for magicians and magic historians. It has hundred of thousands (millions? maybe) of pages, from a variety of sources. It's a subscription service, so maybe start somewhere else, like the Learned Pig, or just pick up a modern reprint of an older book.

daleshrimpton wrote:Not sure i get why your asking this. After all, 99% of new magic, is based on old magic. I know most of my releases have been anyway.

There could be a possible old medieval effect that could have not been based, or an opportunity to change the effect.

MikeMagician wrote:There could be a possible old medieval effect that could have not been based, or an opportunity to change the effect.

Exactly! Most of Merlin's work was been lost. Sad times.

Researching old books is a good idea for magicians in general. A good background in old techniques along with new will give you a better magic education. As Dale has said almost all tricks are based on old ideas. I think you need a more definite idea though of what sort of effects your interested in. For example a lot of the material you'll find on the Victorian Edwardian and era will be stage magic using large equipment. Some of these effects are still done the same way others have been improved. A lot of my favourite mental magic material came out in the 1940s. Many people ignore some of these seeing the techniques as dated or too simple, but then will buy material from Osterlind, Docc Hilford, Max Maven, etc which are based on these. Hilford and Maven to be fair are very good about sourcing the old material, but I doubt many people check over the works they reference.

Probably one of the most famous old sources for magic is the discoverie of witchcraft from the late 1500's. Paul Prater makes a knife through finger based on the illustrations.

I get a lot of inspiration from reading spiritualist sources for bizarre magic. Occasionally you'll find nice methods written in the exposure books published at the time.

Researching these things will do you good, but I think you need to think about the areas of magic you're interested in. I think most of what you've posted about is close up, cards and coins and so on. So a study of Victorian magic may not provide much. From the 40s onwards you'll find more close up effects with the release of royal road in 1949 and Modern coin magic in the 50s. But a lot of these releases are still in common usage. While it will be interesting for you and will widen your knowledge, do not expect to find anything someone hasn't done or got out currently. Modernising old effects is standard practise, but don't try and claim it as your own idea. You will get caught.

I agree with Dale, perhaps you shouldn't try too hard to find anything you can to improve, just play about with things you already know, maybe mix and match methods and moves to try and come up with your own version, then when you're pretty damn sure it's not about somewhere, ask a few trusted people who know what their on about to reseasrch it as well as researching yourself. This way, if none of you come up with something, there's a pretty good chance you've stumbled upon something, but again, like Dale said, make sure to credit anyone involved with it, I would say everything from each sleight used to even your insperation for using them together. Another idea would just be to think "If...[insert idea here]...happened, that would make for some amazing magic, but how could I acomplish it?". I remember reading somewhere that this is a good way to come up with effects.

don't want to jumo on the "i agree" train.... but I'm going to have to I'm afraid

i can understand why you would want to do the things your suggesting, but whilst you're still at an early stage in your learning process, it is best to just take in what you can from these old books, before trying to alter things in them........ obviously as a magician one of the milestones we want to achieve is to have our own effects out there for all to see and enjoy, but being so young in magic (myself included and i've been doing it for a good number of years) we are not in that position yet, we have so much to learn before we can even begin to think about creating our own effecs n whatnot!!!

gotta love your enthusiasm though

C.L.Ward wrote:don't want to jumo on the "i agree" train.... but I'm going to have to I'm afraid

i can understand why you would want to do the things your suggesting, but whilst you're still at an early stage in your learning process, it is best to just take in what you can from these old books, before trying to alter things in them........ obviously as a magician one of the milestones we want to achieve is to have our own effects out there for all to see and enjoy, but being so young in magic (myself included and i've been doing it for a good number of years) we are not in that position yet, we have so much to learn before we can even begin to think about creating our own effecs n whatnot!!!

gotta love your enthusiasm though

I really agree with what you say, I'm not looking to credit tricks as much just resurrecting them, modernising them and improving them in my era and style. Any style of magic is prefered also. Not just sticking to the close up stuff, although avoiding stage magic. But on the other hand, all would be interesting to read.

Been doing magic on and off for 10 years, my nerves get the better of me and I think the lack of ability in performance really makes me think to do something. I just know a couple of tricks, present them in my way..then that's it. I will be stuck when people ask me for some more. Although that really has no relevance to the researching, I just want to be prepared practically by knowing an idea that I have improved and made modern. That thought alone would give me a buzz

I will check out the links given, see if I can find some companies and pay them a visit. Really want to achieve something from this, even if it's for my own self being.

Cheers guys. Thanks once again

MikeMagician wrote:
I really agree with what you say, I'm not looking to credit tricks as much just resurrecting them, modernising them and improving them in my era and style. Any style of magic is prefered also. Not just sticking to the close up stuff, although avoiding stage magic. But on the other hand, all would be interesting to read.

Been doing magic on and off for 10 years, my nerves get the better of me and I think the lack of ability in performance really makes me think to do something. I just know a couple of tricks, present them in my way..then that's it. I will be stuck when people ask me for some more. Although that really has no relevance to the researching, I just want to be prepared practically by knowing an idea that I have improved and made modern. That thought alone would give me a buzz

I will check out the links given, see if I can find some companies and pay them a visit. Really want to achieve something from this, even if it's for my own self being.

Cheers guys. Thanks once again

So in essence all you really want to do is change the patter and stuff??? most patter lines in books are horribley outdated and especially in some of the books i've been reading lately (been delving deeper and deeper into the magical archives....lol) the patter is just unusable...... which is where it pays to be a creative thinker!!!

Confidence plays a big part in any performance related role....wether that be an actor, singer, magician, whatever..... you need to be able to just throw caution to the wind and think "f**K it" if this goes wrong what have i lost?? i think as magicians we all dread the thought of messing a routine up, but it happens to the best of us at some point or other..... its just about turning it into a moot-issue..... being able to laugh and shrug it off and move onto the next effect (rather than just standing there and shaking like a sh***ing dog) is what sets a good performer apart from the average.
Unfortunately confidence is not something one can really teach..... give it time and lots of practise and that will soon dissappear.

i understand what you say about being stuck once you've shown all your tricks....... when you only have one or 2 in your arsenal you obviously cant, excuse the punn, just pull tricks out of a hat...... but again this is something that you will only be able to rectify with time and practise

A lot of old and long forgotten effects are old and long forgotten for a good reason.
The best way to find a new way of doing an old effect is to put the old effect in your act and perform it. You'll then find newer or better ways of doing it as you work on it. If the effect isn't usable for the modern performer then you are probably wasting your time I think.

I would suggest working on ways of making old effects instantly resettable as that would be very practical and desirable for the modern day performer, whereas the old Victorian-style of drawing room magic was mostly based on a lot of preparation for a one off show.

If you look at Hoffman's books or Ward & Lock you will find hundreds of fairly decent tricks that don't suit the modern performer as they are a pain in the bum to set up. Finding ways of making them instantly reset or reset fairly quickly would be beneficial to the modern day performer I think.

Sorry if this doesn't answer the question but just my view on the subject.