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I'd quite like to get some nice cups for the cups and balls. I've got the aluminium ones from Bazar de Magia but they don't take much in the way of final loads.

I like the look of the Gazzo/Animal type and size (in copper) but they are a wee bit beyond my pocket right now.

Do they tend to come up for 2nd hand sale often and if so, what do they tend to go for? It'd be nice to know how much pocket money I need to save up before I start posting wanted ads.

There are animal cups up on ebay for about 100 dollars. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gary-Animal-Cop ... 45fdfd97c3 (4 hours left as of this post). They're very used and rather beat up though.

I got Phoenix cups (new but cups only) for 125 from Denny&Lee. I've seen Johnson cups almost always go for at least 200. If you want a really nice set, you're going to pay at least 100 dollars. Rather than waiting for a cheap used set, I think it would just be worth it to save up 250 and get a nice RNT2 cups set.

The Gazzo cups tend to be fairly expensive, even second hand.

What are you wanting to use as final loads that dont fit in the Bazar cups ? I use copper Bazar cups and Michael Ammars Fab Fruit as my final loads. The cups I have are slightly different from the sets nowadays. When I bought mine there were two sizes available - standard and short. Mine have the same load capacity as the standard, and the same size of skirt, but the top part is shorter.

The price of most copper cups has risen a fair bit in recent years, and is set to continue rising due to the rising prices of copper. This is also why our modern 2ps have an ''attractive'' quality which is handy for us magicians. The amount of copper needed to make the coins costs more than the coin is worth, so other metals are used instead. You'll notice the older coins arent ''attractive'' due to their high copper content.


jim

SleightlyCrazy...
With used prices like that I probably will hang on a bit for some new ones.
Thanks for taking the time to type up a those prices. Much appreciated.

(For future reference for anyone reading this thread, the eBay auction linked finished at $165)


Jim...
At the moment I go for small fruit like limes or small oranges. I'd like to take it outside when I've got a bit more polish on the routine and presentation though, and for that I can't help thinking bigger cups and final loads (tennis balls, large oranges and the likes) would be much better. I can't say the extra weight and the nice tarnish of copper cups don't appeal too.

I didn't know about the 2p coins... duly noted.

The phoenix cups I have can handle these small tennis balls that are made for dogs. They are called "Tuff Balls" and are made of thicker material and are just the perfect size for the cups (normal tennis balls don't fit). If you can track those down wherever you are, I can highly recommend the phoenix cups. They're normally 200 but come with an iron wood wand and 4 fancy balls. I can only comment on the cups themselves, but they are excellent. Thick copper in an attractive Bertram/Miller style cup set.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com ... qE%2BeQ%3D

You can see how they tarnish and how the slightly smaller tennis ball looks like set on top. I really like them.

No matter what you pick, if you're going to perform on the street, be sure to get thick cups. I ditched my nice penguin cups very quickly since I found they collected dents much too eagerly. Great for everything else, but not street cups.

The design of those cups create the illusion that the ball is too big for the cup very well

Will you be keeping the patina/allowing it to develop, or polishing ? My cups have a nice rich patina which i like very much. I actually prefer patinised cups rather than shiny ones. This is due both to personal taste, and certain visual qualities that i feel are important in a cups routine.

jim

I'm definitely keeping the patina. I think it's beautiful. When I first got them, I actually handled the cups mindlessly while watching videos etc. just to catalyze the process. Newell Unfried, who works at the Hollywood magic shop, on one of my visits told me to never polish cups because they reflect the palmed ball when doing certain moves. It's not a problem for me since on the street people aren't close enough nor attentive enough to notice a reflection, but it's something to take into consideration regardless.

Yes, a palmed ball can indeed be reflected. If using shiny cups certain moves and angles sometimes have to be adapted at close quarters.

To expand a bit on my above post :

In my mind the focus of a Cups and Balls routine should be the balls, not the cups. So the balls should always stand out more than the cups. Im not saying the cups should blend into the background and be barely visible, but at first glance the balls should catch your eye more than the cups, which are merely covers. It should be the same for the mat or table covering, which should be dark and inconspicuios. The magicians dress should also be taken into account. Ideally you wouldnt want something bright - when the balls are on top of the cups (or to quote Paul Daniels ''the top of the bottom of the cup'' ) you want them to stand out from the background (your attire).

Using shiny cups runs contrary to this. The way that the light bounces off a shiny cup draws your eye to it rather than the ball.

I use a similar philosophy for other effects. Take the Coin Matrix for example. Same idea - the cards are there as covers for the coins - the coins should be the focus. For this reason i use a dark mat and blue backed cards. The blue cards are not as bright as red and dont stand out anywhere near as much against a dark background. My coins, which are shiny and bright are in stark contrast to the cards and mat, and the eye is immedietly drawn to them.

Of course the cups and Balls can be done very well with shiny cups, and any cards can be used for Matrix. I just feel this sort of attention helps with the focus and clarity of effects, and also sets a nice picture


jim

Never thought of it that way. Great post!

SC - I'll have a look for something like Tuff Balls in the local pet shops. I've always liked the rounded look of the Gazzo type cups, but the Phoenix ones really do look good. I agree with Jim that their tapering sides make the balls look to big to fit. A nice effect.
I'm not entirely sure I see *how* thinner cups pick up so many dents on the street unless people are just throwing them around all the time - but to be fair mine have a very easy life at the moment so I've not really much to base that on.

I see the Penguin ones are described as "a rugged cup for the serious performer" - are they considerably more fragile than the more expensive (Gazzo/Phoenix/Animal etc) ones?

Is there a simple way to get the inside to tarnish more quickly? I can see handling the outside all the time to darken that side, but the inside?



Jim - I've thought about reflections a fair bit with my shiny Aluminium cups.
Your bit about contrast and the focus of trick. I hadn't really considered that the focus in the Cups and Balls should be almost entirely on the balls and not the cups so it makes a lot of sense to keep everything else (cups, table and clothes) subdued so the balls jump out. It sounds very much like the principles of contrast (both colour and intensity) in photography.
I'll be giving the contrast issue a lot more thought from now.


Thanks both for a great thread. I was just expecting a rough price and the thread to die.

On the street, many people use the cups as a sound factor. I do cup-thru-cup, wand thru cup, and generally band them around to make noise and catch people's attention. Sometimes, hold them right side up on my palm and tap them with the wand to make a nice bell sound and other times I have them mouth down on the table and smack them for a sharp metallic shriek. Other than the general abuse for sound, cups are bound to fall off the table at some point. When my penguin cup fell, it left a very noticeable bend. The phoenix cups, on the other hand, fell from a further height yet barely got roughed up at all. Over the years I'm sure even my phoenix will get little dents, but by the time that happens, the penguins would be crumpled pieces of metal. To answer your question in a word, yes.

To be clear, the penguin cups are very nice for close up, just not street.

The inside of my cups are still shiny... Not a big problem for me, but I can't help you out if you want yours different...

Also, Jim and I have been talking about the cups and balls over many different threads for a while now. He always has something interesting and insightful to say.

As it was a performance of the cups and balls (Todd Various') that rekindled my interest in magic from the very slight one I had as a bartender many moons ago I always read, with great interest, the threads I see on the cups. Definitely some interesting stuff to be read.

I hadn't considered really the abuse cups take outside the routine itself.

I don't mind shiny insides so much, but shiny outsides do complicate things a little when it comes to reflecting things that shouldn't be seen. I just noticed that Gazzo's cups on the various bits of video floating around are tarnished inside and out, and I seem to recall other cups I've seen being similarly tarnished.