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I struggled with this for ages, I tried the books and youtube but couldn't quite get it - then I watched Lee Smith's TNT routine on iCandy, he gives a 2 minute tutorial of his version that just seemed to work for me.

Alfred Borden wrote:Thanks again for all the advice guys, I have a feeling I may be doing something very simple wrong, because the more practice I put in, I don't really get any closer to perfecting this move...sitting here at work going over it and not really happening

Seriously, you should stop practicing. You are obviously missing something somewhere, and if you are going at it this long with no progress then you are just practicing your mistakes, and it will be hard to correct.

With this move, I have found, especially when learning the move, the condition of the cards does make a difference. Somebody posted that they don't have a problem with new cards. I have the exact opposite problem, I like the cards a little used.

Also you may want to try this, Have the selected card on top. DL and have the DL face up on the face down deck, Now try the move. So the selected card materializes. You may find that because the cards in play are now bowed opposite from the rest it may be easier to control. If this works, practice that way so you will get the right pressure etc. And once that is going well try without the DL so all the cards are bowed the same, then start with different deck conditions. Soon you should be able to perform in any scenario. But first you have to get the movement down, so be careful with praciting the mistakes. Try different things

ACE T wrote:I struggled with this for ages, I tried the books and youtube but couldn't quite get it - then I watched Lee Smith's TNT routine on iCandy, he gives a 2 minute tutorial of his version that just seemed to work for me.

Yes, it is a nice tutorial, probably my favourite trick on the DVD as well

bmat wrote:

Alfred Borden wrote:Thanks again for all the advice guys, I have a feeling I may be doing something very simple wrong, because the more practice I put in, I don't really get any closer to perfecting this move...sitting here at work going over it and not really happening

Seriously, you should stop practicing. You are obviously missing something somewhere, and if you are going at it this long with no progress then you are just practicing your mistakes, and it will be hard to correct.

With this move, I have found, especially when learning the move, the condition of the cards does make a difference. Somebody posted that they don't have a problem with new cards. I have the exact opposite problem, I like the cards a little used.

Also you may want to try this, Have the selected card on top. DL and have the DL face up on the face down deck, Now try the move. So the selected card materializes. You may find that because the cards in play are now bowed opposite from the rest it may be easier to control. If this works, practice that way so you will get the right pressure etc. And once that is going well try without the DL so all the cards are bowed the same, then start with different deck conditions. Soon you should be able to perform in any scenario. But first you have to get the movement down, so be careful with praciting the mistakes. Try different things

This is fantastic advice, I remember years ago when I started playing golf, and reading pretty much that, was something along the line of "practice makes perfect? No, Practice makes you practice your mistakes which makes them perfect...and then harder to learn the correct way"

So practice makes perfect is BS really!

Alfred Borden wrote:
This is fantastic advice, I remember years ago when I started playing golf, and reading pretty much that, was something along the line of "practice makes perfect? No, Practice makes you practice your mistakes which makes them perfect...and then harder to learn the correct way"

So practice makes perfect is BS really!

I heard that as "Practice Makes Permanent", which is considerably easier to say.
So I suppose practicing "perfect" makes the "perfect" permanent. Or something.

isb wrote:

Alfred Borden wrote:
This is fantastic advice, I remember years ago when I started playing golf, and reading pretty much that, was something along the line of "practice makes perfect? No, Practice makes you practice your mistakes which makes them perfect...and then harder to learn the correct way"

So practice makes perfect is BS really!

I heard that as "Practice Makes Permanent", which is considerably easier to say.
So I suppose practicing "perfect" makes the "perfect" permanent. Or something.

yeah pretty much, guess that's what that golf book I read many moons ago was saying...

Have you tried holding a break under the top card? I find it makes the Erdnase a lot easier.

Gary Dickson wrote:Have you tried holding a break under the top card? I find it makes the Erdnase a lot easier.

I'll give this a go, cheers, either that or resign myself to the fact I'm a fat useless **** with sausage fingers and cack handed

So practice makes perfect is BS really!

I'd be cautious with this idea, I don't fully agree that if you practice something and it's not quite right that you're not learning or that your making the mistake perminant.

As long as you know what you're trying to achieve I think you will be making improvements or at least learning how not to do it.

I recently learnt to juggle and I can tell you it was quite hard going. I was utterly useless but somehow I very slowly improved and now It's hard to see why I couldn't do it before. Getting things wrong plays a big part in learning and is part of the natural process of learning new skills.

Thanks for everyones help on this, am now 95% happy with this

The thing that is toughest is trying to do any sleights with dry hands, really difficult, spot of moisturiser and everything's hunky dorey

Problem is, as anyone else who has a baby knows, you do tend to wash your hands about 674 times per day which really dries them

I struggled with this one for ages, I'm still not perfect but I'm getting better although I sometimes every now and again separate my little finger from the others so you can see the cards underneath. I'll try the little finger push which will hopefully stop this.

The way I learned the move was to have my hand slightly damp (the pad of the palm below the fingers) which enabled me to concentrate on getting the actual move flowing smoothly without worrying too much about gripping on the card as with dry hands. Once I had the move looking natural I started practising with my hands dry and found it a lot easier. It still helps lots having slippy cards though.

Shaun.

One of the best things I have found for dry hands is Grippo It is used by bowlers. I don''t like the smell however and, if you're not too shy, buy some 'Vagisil' from your pharmacy. It works quite well!

Karma wrote:

So practice makes perfect is BS really!

I'd be cautious with this idea, I don't fully agree that if you practice something and it's not quite right that you're not learning or that your making the mistake perminant.

As long as you know what you're trying to achieve I think you will be making improvements or at least learning how not to do it.

I recently learnt to juggle and I can tell you it was quite hard going. I was utterly useless but somehow I very slowly improved and now It's hard to see why I couldn't do it before. Getting things wrong plays a big part in learning and is part of the natural process of learning new skills.

I absolutly agree with this. The key is progress, if you are not making any progress then there is an issue. And you will perfect your mistake. One has to understand exactly what they are practicing. I have found it is always best to give it a shot. give it time and don't give up. But there is also a time when you just can't seem to get anywhere with a move and that is when you need help from somebody who knows.

For me as an example. I couldn't cull a card. Tried all sorts of methods but non of them worked. I'd try and try and I knew I was missing something basic. I brought it up on one of these posts, either here or another board but it got me thinking that while not necessary I would like to learn a cull.

Finally I broke down and asked a local magician for some help. In about five minutes I found out one fundamental bit of business that I was missing. Now I'm not great but I've progressed more in a handful of days than I've ever learned from the move.

Possibly the best I've ever seen is from the guy who runs MagicBong...great tips on his blog too.

http://magicbong.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11 ... hange.html

I quite liked Jonathan Bayme's instruction on the move here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MRhlxO-nfQ

I like the way he spreads the fingers so you can still see the top card until the move is done.