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Shoot me down in flames if you like but surely Hypnosis is all in the mind? The mind of the subject, that is.

johnnyryanUK wrote:The basis I say trance doesn't exist comes from reading so called experts on hypnosis so to question them is to be ignorant to the reality that trance does that exist.

Definition of expert: "Ex" - a has-been; "Spurt" - a drip under pressure.

There must be as many hypnotists, psychologists, mentalists and whatevers that will tell you that trance does exist as will tell you that it doesn't. I'm a hypnotherapist and I can tell you definitively that there is such a thing as hypnosis - though I don't trouble myself or my clients with an explanation of what it is or how it works. Also, scans have shown that subjects under hypnosis have noticeably different brain patterns - Google for hypnosis brain scan and see what comes up.

Also, as Tomo said, you and everyone else go into a "trance" state many times a day in normal life. Ever walked into a room and forgotten what you went in for? Or been driving and not noticed how you got there? Or not heard someone call you while watching TV?

Barry

Excellent examples Barry, if those trance states can be induced by another person as and when required then that would be hypnosis as near as any definition can cover. I find that I am often distracted by some happing and then realised I've completed another task without remembering I'd done it. Many's the time I've been making cups of tea for all and sundry, go into the fridge for the milk yet find that I've already done that - presumably whilst trying to remember who has sugar, how many spoonsful, who has sweeteners and who has none at all. Very often Mrs. M can induce that state but suddenly mentioning some topic or other 'out of the blue' which means I lose my train of thought on doing something else yet later I find I've finished whatever task I was doing. In The Heist, Derren Brown taught the victims that making a statement totally unconnected with a topic of conversation can often confuse someone else long enough to achieve some other purpose - the guy 'stealing' the chocolate in a shop tried it with some reference to a gate or fence and almost got away with it - almost, but not quite! Fascinating thread folks, keep it up!

magicofthemind wrote:

johnnyryanUK wrote:The basis I say trance doesn't exist comes from reading so called experts on hypnosis so to question them is to be ignorant to the reality that trance does that exist.

Definition of expert: "Ex" - a has-been; "Spurt" - a drip under pressure.

There must be as many hypnotists, psychologists, mentalists and whatevers that will tell you that trance does exist as will tell you that it doesn't. I'm a hypnotherapist and I can tell you definitively that there is such a thing as hypnosis - though I don't trouble myself or my clients with an explanation of what it is or how it works. Also, scans have shown that subjects under hypnosis have noticeably different brain patterns - Google for hypnosis brain scan and see what comes up.

Also, as Tomo said, you and everyone else go into a "trance" state many times a day in normal life. Ever walked into a room and forgotten what you went in for? Or been driving and not noticed how you got there? Or not heard someone call you while watching TV?

Barry

It is a very soft science Barry send me a link to an academically reviewed journal article on the matter of as you say 'trance existing'. How can you scientifically and philosophically possibly know that it does exist where does your grounded evidence come from because 'brain scans' doesn't scream out to me proof. You cannot draw causality from correlation my friend, I study Psychology (a real science) and I do not accept arguments based on daily mail reportings.

I have a degree in psychology and I don't read the Daily Mail. I am well aware of the fact that there is no such thing as "proof" in psychology, just theories which are invariably wrong (because there is always conflicting evidence).

Barry

johnnyryanUK wrote:

magicofthemind wrote:

johnnyryanUK wrote:The basis I say trance doesn't exist comes from reading so called experts on hypnosis so to question them is to be ignorant to the reality that trance does that exist.

Definition of expert: "Ex" - a has-been; "Spurt" - a drip under pressure.

There must be as many hypnotists, psychologists, mentalists and whatevers that will tell you that trance does exist as will tell you that it doesn't. I'm a hypnotherapist and I can tell you definitively that there is such a thing as hypnosis - though I don't trouble myself or my clients with an explanation of what it is or how it works. Also, scans have shown that subjects under hypnosis have noticeably different brain patterns - Google for hypnosis brain scan and see what comes up.

Also, as Tomo said, you and everyone else go into a "trance" state many times a day in normal life. Ever walked into a room and forgotten what you went in for? Or been driving and not noticed how you got there? Or not heard someone call you while watching TV?

Barry

It is a very soft science Barry send me a link to an academically reviewed journal article on the matter of as you say 'trance existing'. How can you scientifically and philosophically possibly know that it does exist where does your grounded evidence come from because 'brain scans' doesn't scream out to me proof. You cannot draw causality from correlation my friend, I study Psychology (a real science) and I do not accept arguments based on daily mail reportings.

You seem to be confusing the absence of a trance "state" as defined by EEG/fMRI with the absence of a trance experience.
The trance experience as a subjective entity has been studied and described by many individuals.

Feynman's description of his experience is interesting:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=N3eL ... is&f=false

And whilst the plural of anecdote is not data multiple case descriptions/anecdotes can result in useful data. Subjective experiences such as hypnosis are dependant on subjective description in order to study them. If you are studying psychology then you will realise that there are a number of areas where the hypotheses are highly robust and resistant to falsification and testing against a null hypothesis. Hypnosis and the subjective experience of being under hypnosis appears to be reasonably consistent.
We experience altered states of consciousness at various times and following various stimuli, hypnosis appears to be a way of inducing a particular form of selective attention that results in the subjective experience of "being hypnotised". Whether there is a neurologically distinct trance state or not seems to me to be irrelevant.

I know about the brain scan codswallop and I still say that hypnosis is a load of old cobblers. I never take any notice of scientists. These are the sort of people daft enough to think Uri Geller was the real thing so I always ignore them completely.

We discussed all this before on another thread years ago so I won't go through all the old ground again. I shall merely say that Johnny is absolutely correct. There is no such thing as "hypnosis". There is just a lot of daft people thinking they are "hypnotised" which is not quite the same thing. Self delusion might be a better expression than hypnosis.

I am alway amused that many hypnotists themselves have no idea what is actually happening and are daft enough to believe something actually is. It isn't. And once you get that in your mind it is astonishing how much easier it is to bring on the "phenomena".

mark lewis wrote:I know about the brain scan codswallop and I still say that hypnosis is a load of old cobblers. I never take any notice of scientists. These are the sort of people daft enough to think Uri Geller was the real thing so I always ignore them completely.

And here we have Mr Lewis' inner troll.

If I could make a suggestion, I'd probably say you don't need to know about snap inductions and things yet. You want to know about how beginners should learn hypnotism, so my advice would be to use the techniques explained in TOTM and just try it out on friends and family. There is enough in that book for you to be able to carry out inductions. Hypnotism is almost entirely dependent on your own confidence and the consequent belief of the subject. I think this is something you can only build through experience and starting with small experiments with people that you know, so it wont matter too much if it doesn't work.

I don't think reading a book on hypnotism and then going straight on to the street to perform is how you should go about it. Derren himself says in TOTM that he started off with basic inductions in his uni bedroom.

Tomo may think I am a troll but there is one difference between me and him. I am a professional stage hypnotist who has done hundreds and hundreds of shows and who knows what he is talking about. I am not aware that he has done any. I have studied the subject in great depth as I do with any subject that I take interest in. Therefore I am the expert and he isn't. Besides I am MARK LEWIS and he certainly isn't. That alone should be enough.

But Johnny may wish to refer to the previous long, long, long thread on this matter. Here it is. I hope he has plenty of time on his hands.

ftopic16474.php?start=15

Warning newbies not to take Mr Lewis' bait is a public service.

I think it is a bigger public service and indeed a service to magic to ENCOURAGE people, especially newbies, to read my posts. I provide knowledge and experience unmatched by my critics who base their statements on speculation whereas I base them on intense study and the fact that I happen to be a genius.

Also worth mentioning at this point is that each author's post is an expression of their own opinion at the time, supported by whatever experience and skills they may have. As such, all opinions are valid, to be taken in context and each reader needs to make their own assessment about what to believe and what to not believe. As with all other matters, Mod's decision is final.

Play nicely folks!

Well said, sir!

Tomo wrote:Warning newbies not to take Mr Lewis' bait is a public service.

And appreciated