talkmagic.co.uk

Not that it would surprise anyone here, but let me offer a contrasting point or two.

The fact that a person that is classified as an "adult" in our current era, somehow placed himself into a position with a person presently considered a "minor" into a sexual interlude of some kind, which I will agree, is "suspect" BUT the ONLY THING that makes US think it reprehensible is current social perspective. Go back just 3-4 generations and you will find that a young girl partnered with a man 10+ years older than her, was NORMAL; it was socially and legally acceptable to find girls as young as 15 married to men in their 30's and there was NOTHING immoral or sinful thought of it.

My mother was 19 when she got married, something much of today's culture would find appalling, but in the late 1950s this wasn't just common fair, she was a bit old when it came to when young girls settled down and started into a family life. My father is 7 years older than my mother, which fits into the social curve when it comes to the previously noted Older Man/Younger Girl rapport. But let's go back into time and culture a bit further . . .

Even now you will find cultures in which girls as young as 13 are traded into marriage. Traditionally when a young girl has her first period she was seen to be a woman and similarly, a lad who's voice has dropped and those early wet dreams prove common was viewed as a "man" . . . then too, it was common in these social norms that a man 19 or so would already be on his way to having a family, property and possibly even his own business. These things are very common from the earliest of biblical times (and before. . . let's say "the bronze age") to present (just not as wide spread).

This latter factor is based entirely on how NATURE works and how it was a common side of culture. While the trend towards protecting younger "adults" and preserving their innocence started in the European upper-class as far back as the 14th century the idea that young teens were still "children" didn't become wide spread until the Victorian era and again, it was more a matter of upper-society and those that were "city dwellers" vs. those of low education and living in rural/agriculture-based environs that are more closely related to nature and natural cycles in life.

As a society we have raised the perspective as to what a "child" is the further we grew away from the simpler modes of living and general ties to farm life. But there is more. . . that age difference scenario described earlier between men and young ladies also existed between older women and young lads; as the older lady became widowed it was not unusual for her to take on a younger male "lover" and in many a case, end up marrying this lad. If you study the habits of some of the world's wealthier family dynasties you see that this was a very common practice for the sake of perpetuating the growth of a financial lineage when heirs weren't available (most pronounced in the American West).

The fact is, there is a nature based explanation when it comes to situations of this kind, something that society tends to be myopic about just as they ignore how we have extended adolescence well into the 20's now vs. the push toward taking responsibility and being productive by one's mid-teens, such as my generation saw things.

This brings us to another ingredient when it comes to "Nature" . . . the fact that we have teens as young as 12 these days, that dress as people 10+ their senior as well as those that physically appear to be in that older age group. Both male & female's in this age group have learned how to use their physical presence on the manipulative level and far more than not, it is the forward nature of these curious kids that bait the proverbial hook. . . I've been put in some very awkward situations because of this very thing but I'm also aware of kids in this niche, who threaten adults to "put out" or they will scream rape/molestation anyway. This is something the U.S. has only recently started looking at and weighing because it's become so pronounced.

Why?

I have to agree with the general research, it's what today's young people are exposed to via TV, Social Media and Video Games but too, it is because so many parents in today's era don't parent! They want to be friends with their kids, which is only a small part of the obligation. . . that's another story however.

I'm not trying to excuse what Richard has done, but I do hope to shine some light on things that so many refuse to take into consideration when it comes to this kind of thing. Show me one healthy male 25 + in age that don't have lewd fantasies about those "cute young things" -- those high school cheer leaders, etc. It's in us all because it has its roots in nature not the laws and "ethos" of modern (European-based) society.

Just to be clear, we're not attempting to excuse or otherwise explain what Richard did or why he did it, he's the adult in all this and he's the one who will face the legal as well as the personal penalties. If nothing else it shows that sexual temptation is a very strong force, especially when it has has the added element of something risky or which shouldn't be done.

The alleged rape text and the ludicrous excuse are the most disturbing things in this whole saga. Even texting that to a grown woman is bad enough but to a fifteen year old?

There has sadly been too many cases like this involving magicians. It doesn't help the decent ones out there working hard.

I wonder what the sentence will be?

Craig, thankfully in this day and age and in this part of the world, girls are seen as more than simply a drain on their family and a baby making machine, house keeper and often status symbol for a future husband.

What Richard did was wrong and disgustingand has no excuse what so ever. He took advantage of a young girl. Girls that age are impulsive and can be easily manipulated or groomed which is the whole reason that there are rules about this sort of thing, to protect them. The basic facts are that he exchanged photos and sexual banter with a 15 year old girl. For starters it seems very odd that a girl would send a photo like that totally out of the blue and what was he doing giving his phone number out to a girl of that age in the first place? Talking over Facebook is one thing but text messages are something altogther different and in my mind that's the point that things get inappropriate. I know its speculation but I'd happily bet that there was already a certain degree of flirting going on before the first photo was sent.

Comments of rape are completely wrong regardless of the context and he as the responsible adult should have known when to stop. Girls get infatuated over older men all the time but you'd expect the man to be sensible enough not to let it develop into anything. In my mind he deserves everything that the judge throws at him,I have no sympathy for that sort of thing.

Hear hear, Rebecca. It astonishes me how many magicians dismiss this kind of thing and sweep it under the carpet.
Sending a 15 year old girl a text saying (allegedly) that you want to hold them down and rape them is not really something that can be excused even with Richard's lame excuse that it was a joke. The same thing happened on other forums and Facebook groups with the Jim Pace scenario, shoved aside and told not to mention it.

Bellars video has the usual apologist traits: weak excuse, blaming someone else (she sent the first photo) and self pity (I don't blame you for hating me,etc).

Oddly, he would have got a far more hostile response in the magic community if he claimed to talk to the dead.

For starters it seems very odd that a girl would send a photo like that totally out of the blue

Sadly, this is just not true. I have over heard many conversations over the last few years, where girls have been sitting on the bus, train, or at rehearsals for a show. These conversations have included a phone being passed around, and lewd photos displayed. Photos of themselves, which have been sent to guys, and photos of guys that they have received in return. Its a wide spread practice. OK, the girls tend to be complete slappers, I mean take a look at the Kyle show, to see the type. yes.. he should of nipped it in the bud, but this girl is far from innocent, and shouldn't be looked on as a victim.
She has gone up to Rich during his 100 hours thing, flirted like mad, and he has put all his family life to one side, and responded. Some blokes are like that.They think with their groins, rather than their Brains.

As the red mist of lust decended over his eyes, he didn't think about the consequences of his actions. To his immense credit he did hand himself in, there are others in the magic community who have waited to see if they would firstly, get caught and secondly, hoped that it would all disappear quickly. Richard has not done this. However I can't see him performing in public ever again. Such a shame, he was recently embarking on a new lecture tour of all the clubs and magic societys. He had a lot to offer.

Lady of Mystery wrote: what was he doing giving his phone number out to a girl of that age in the first place? Talking over Facebook is one thing but text messages are something altogther different and in my mind that's the point that things get inappropriate.

I have to challenge that statement.

I have a young girl who has my phone number. I have been giving her pointers in magic as she has a keen interest. If parents allow children to have access to smart phones etc then they will expect them to send texts and make phone calls.

Prior to agreeing to help the young lady out from time to time I ensured that she informed her Parents about the phone calls.

I know you said that its your opinion but its not always inappropriate.

Thats the only point i wanted to raise about your post.

I think the issue really is that the laws that exist exist to protect minors from themselves as much as from predatory hebephiles. They are going to do stupid or age-inappropriate things; the adult world shouldn't exploit that.

Dale, I think the bottom line is that the girl is 15 and did a stupid thing (we've all done stupid things at that age) but Richard, the responsible adult took advantage of her and her imaturity.

In an age where parents can't film their kids at the swimming pool or on a school sports day, any intelligent individual should realise dealing with kids that aren't related to you is a dodgy area.

It's okay saying he did things on the heat of the moment etc but anyone with half a brain (or isn't a perv) would have nipped this in the bud straight away particularly if they knew the child was underage. Sending a text saying you want to rape someone is bad enough, let alone to a child. Teenagers who have their hormones racing tend to be like this with older men particularly ones with a minor bit of celebrity. For a 31 year old man to take advantage of this is dispicable. Bellars has a young daughter himself. If she was 15 and a perv sent her a text saying he was going to rape her, would he laugh it off as a "joke"?

Many magicians are dismissing this, it seems, as a "boys will boys" type scenario but I think women and people who are parents would hold a different view.

Lord Freddie wrote: Many magicians are dismissing this

Not on here.

That, I would hope, is the whole point about this thread - it's totally unacceptable for many different reasons and a salutary warning of what can happen if anyone decides to throw standards aside.

Mandrake wrote:

Lord Freddie wrote: Many magicians are dismissing this

Not on here.

That, I would hope, is the whole point about this thread - it's totally unacceptable for many different reasons and a salutary warning of what can happen if anyone decides to throw standards aside.

Quite, who he is is a bit of a red herring really. The key points are that what was done was not acceptable ( given current cultural norms obviously but then that is how we decide what is appropriate/acceptable/legal) whoever the adult male is.

Lord Freddie wrote:The alleged rape text and the ludicrous excuse are the most disturbing things in this whole saga....

The other disturbing thing is that he is married.
Does love, respect or commitment have no place in marriages these days ?