talkmagic.co.uk

Iv'e been told that card flourishes have nothing to do with magic, I beg to differ on the subject. I would agree that some flourishes aren't done for the purpose of making the magic happen such as a waterfall shuffle, but some flourishes are used to help make the magic happen such as a card fan, example, I use a one handed card fan to produce coin after coin, the fan itself is a flourish, but I use it to hide the retrieval of back finger palmed coins. So card fans do have something to do with magic.
It's not the average "pick a card any card" style of card trick that I prefer,though I know and do several of those, but it's the cards from air, signed torn and restored cards, card thru window,cards across etc...card magic over card trick. The world of magic goes far beyond the realm of just cards, but you can do some amazing magic with just cards, and my flourishes at least some of them help make it all possible. So please don't feel like card fans have nothing to do with magic, Perhaps if you saw a few of my routines, and others I Immulate, you would have a different opinion on card fans and flourishes. I am careful not to over use flourishes to avoid looking like a show off, but they are helpful and fun. Iv'e gotten quite good at throwing a single card like a boomerang, sending it spinning far away from me, then back to me, for the catch. I Love Magic!, I love cards! I love My card fans! I love magicians that help other magicians!

Like most things, flourishes have their place. If they suit your style and have a purpose then by all means use them. I think that when people talk about flourishes not being magic, they're talking more about XCM and over flourishy performances. There are plenty of times when adding a little flourish here and there can give an effect that bit of pizazz.

Card fans and other flourishes most certainly do have an important role to play in magic. As with other aspects, using them sparingly increases the effectiveness and entertainment, and, IMHO, flourishing just for the sake of it makes it all more akin to card juggling. Too many flourishes makes for a repetitive and boring act, but so do over long cups and balls, thimble/billiard ball production/vanishes, or linking rings routines. It's all a matter of judgement and skills on the performer's behalf. I saw a guy recently who did a very stale act, all traditional effects but performed so mechanically it wouldn't have made any difference if he was performing to an audience or a brick wall. Endless billiard ball productions, far too many doves and his appearing and disappearing candles section went on for so long I was quite ready go and shove the last candle where the sun doesn't shine !

Card manipulation CAN look magical:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tnlopTpbF8

Barry

really enjoyed mandrakes comments, I'm still laughing about the candle remark.

There's a great essay on this very topic at the end of Ortiz's 'Scams &Fantasies with Cards'

Flourishes are great in moderation. They can spice up the magic and garner more interest. However, if they are not used intelligently they can be a detriment to your work. Too much of it can dilute the effect of your magic. If you are continually emphasising your manipulative skill you can end up with less gasping over your magic because the spectator starts to think, "oh, he is very clever with his hands" and they dismiss your work.

It is like salt on a meal. A little can flavour the meal. Too much can taste terrible. And it can give you high blood pressure too. I get that when I see all these young idiots doing flourish after flourish after flourish and ruin the effect of their magic. Remember that a little can go a long way. Art that hides art is the way to go.

I agree with Mr. Lewis and I really like the salt analogy! if I present a "dribble" it's done slow and for a reason, like to show all the cards are facing the same way,before doing a color change or something similar. If i do a face up ribbon spread, I give a reason for spreading the cards, again perhaps showing only one face down card in the spread upon turning over the only reversed card they discover it's their selected and lost card, if I do a one handed fan, it's for a reason, producing coins, changing cards etc..I don't do the extreme card manipulations and I don't over use the flourishes, I use them periodically with a reason that helps pull off and makes for a better effect. a little salt goes a long way It's not that anyone ever thought I was over using the flourishes, it's just that when I mentioned after being questioned about my skill level, that I know and use many sleights and flourishes, I went on to say my fans are nearly perfect everytime, their reply was, that card fans and flourishes have absolutely nothing to do with magic! I just posted this new topic to argue that point a little, well.. not argue, I mean discuss Houdini did a ribbon spread down his arm then tossed them all up in the air and caught them, it wasn;t magical he wasn't trying to be in that moment, he was just doing some good ol fashioned entertaining.

seymourmagic wrote:I agree with Mr. Lewis and I really like the salt analogy! if I present a "dribble" it's done slow and for a reason, like to show all the cards are facing the same way,before doing a color change or something similar. If i do a face up ribbon spread, I give a reason for spreading the cards, again perhaps showing only one face down card in the spread upon turning over the only reversed card they discover it's their selected and lost card, if I do a one handed fan, it's for a reason, producing coins, changing cards etc..I don't do the extreme card manipulations and I don't over use the flourishes, I use them periodically with a reason that helps pull off and makes for a better effect. a little salt goes along way

Yes indeed. I wrote very extensively about this in my Wit and Wisdom e-book. I explained that there are three types of flourishes and each type deserved its own philosophy.

I think I may have been the one that made a remark on another thread that may have started this thread. Even if I didn't I will clarify my remark.

First, I am a huge fan of card flourishes. I use them all the time and they just happen to fit with my style. Card flourshes used correctly and in moderation are wonderful and can indeed inhance a routine, or even make an effect possible.

I can't even be sure it was on this message board, and I'm not going to be exact because I'm too lazy to go back and find the quote. but here is the thing of it.

Somebody was asked about their skills as a magician, perhaps even as a 'card' magician. The reply was something to the effect of, "I have excellent card trick skills, my fans are almost always perfect" I made the reply that ones ability to fan a deck of cards, almost perfect, or perfectly each time does not tell us anything about ones ability to perform a card trick. There are plenty of the XCM 'extreme card Manipulation' people that can make amazing fans but have never performed a card trick. Performing a perfect card fan in no way gives others here any indication of your skills as a magician. As a card flourish guy, yes great. You can also tell me you can perform a perfect elmsley count, and invisible pass and a brilliant second deal. This tells me nothing about your ability to perform a magic trick.

Tell me that you have a great three card monte, a card on ceiling or Ambitious card trick that you have been performing for awhile and the audience response has been great. That will tell me that you have a good grasp of your magicial ability.

But tell me that you were performing hover card to close and somebody and they reached out and grabbed the gimmick? Sorry that tells me that your magicial ability is either in the begining stages, or simply not that great and simply needs refinement. Or you really had a bad night. (if I remember the excuse was, 'had too much to drink' not an excuse) but I don't really care.

Like I said I don't remember the exact conversation, or the exact quotes but the above is the general context of the comments that may, or may not have lead to this thread. In either case I just thought I would throw my half dollar into the subject.

Thank you, that seems to reinforce what others have said - used sparingly such things are excellent. Over use them and the opposite is true.

It was never said that "I have excellent card trick skills" this was a thread where I and another member had a discussion where he suggested some books on cards for me, we had been discussing my goal to get a stage act going and we discussed a coin in a bottle, wich coin is better in what situation etc..., speaking to him I mentioned that I know and use many of the sleights in that book he suggested and my fans have improved greatly and now are very good, nearly perfect, whatever, this was just a quick reply in response to a book suggestion, I wasn't putting out my biography or asked what I was working on or I would have said something like the ambitious card, card through window, signed torn and restored, these things werent said because it wasn't in context with the discussion I was having at the time, I made a quick comment about my flourishes and fans in reguard to declining a certain book, then I went on with the topic at hand, at that time coins. Then a third party joined the conversation, saying that fans have nothing to do with magic, and my saying I'm good at them doesn't reveal any of my knowledge of magic and so forth and so on, the hover card comments are out of context as well, something that happened when I was a teenager over twenty years ago, the hover card incident, and the card fan post, have nothing to do with one another; were talking about a twenty year spread in time difference here. Though it was all through some misunderstanding of one another
I thought Bmat actually believed flourishes including fans had nothing to do with magic, and as I said before I use the fans to aid in productions and thats something to do with magic, anyway I just thought it would be an interesting topic, I didn't know it would bring about the re-hashing of past posts, I opened a can of worms on this one
I feel I was misunderstood.judged harshly,a bit unfairly, and prematurely but thats o.k. I got broad shoulders. if you was told someone was excellent at the invisible pass, that does say something about their ability to perform a magic trick, it's the only move needed besides a DL to do an ambitious card routine and guess what..that's a magic trick.Or are we talking about a more literal meaning of the word "perform" I wasn't asked about my ability to perform, those comments on invisi pass, elmsly,DL's etc... were in response to why I didnt need a beginners book of sleights. Things taken out of context as much here as in the political campaigns, geesh.
heres the quote, I wasnt to lazy to go get it ..."What do card fans have to do with the quality or calibre of magic? Nothing! They are not needed and they are more a demonstration of a flourish rather then card effect quality."
So I get told this, but he posts above that he uses flourishes all the time, I'm only saying in response to this quote, in some instances they are needed. Maybe needed is to strong a word... advantageous perhaps, and in my opinion, they do add to the quality and calibre of magic. see below posted link titled "cards can look magical", tell me his fans don't add to his quality or calibre of magic, do you really think this is so? would it have made a difference had I told you I was working on cards from air, and fan productions, rather than just doing good fans? perhaps, you then would of understood how they add to the quality of my magic?
Again I didn't give any details about my effects because I wasn;t asked about them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeduhzVb ... re=related" target="_blank

I am going to be different from everyone else. To me card flourishes are a niche speciality of juggling. I love watching them done well. But I hate card magic.

TonyB wrote:I am going to be different from everyone else. To me card flourishes are a niche speciality of juggling. I love watching them done well. But I hate card magic.

Tony. I love card magic. But it is not the card magic per se. The card tricks are only a tool. If the performer is a fine showman with an entrancing personality I bet even you would like card magic. Alas however, card tricks are usually done badly (just like mentalism in the wrong hands can be excruciatingly boring) and this can have a lukewarm effect on audiences.

I do agree with Hofzinser that card tricks are the poetry of magic. Alas however most people that do card tricks are very bad poets.

Mark, you might not be wrong. I love watching Bill Malone.

But when someone takes out a deck in a club - assuming I would join a club - I am off to the chipper.