talkmagic.co.uk

I'm getting quite frustrated by the ever increasing prices of magic products. Why are books and DVDs on magic so expensive? You'd normally expect to pay between £8-£20 for a book at a high street bookstore, and maybe £10-20 on a DVD. Why should the fact that a book or DVD is about magic justify almost double the price? I appreciate there are exceptions - classic books like Royal Road and TEATCT are relatively cheap - but I do find it annoying that single DVDs or even slim books attract such hefty price tags.

Well, production costs for magic dvds, is much higher than high street releases, because the production run is a fraction of commercial items. That price has to be passed onto the consumer. Same with print.
However, if you look at the costs involved on any technical works, you will find that they are on a par with magic books.

I think overall, the stuff is priced correctly... whether the contents are actually worth that price, is a different matter.

I don't know that I buy that view completely, Dale. A single disc cost less than a dollar to make, the box and outer sleeve maybe another $3.00 . . . and yes, I'm talking about production-materials. But a lot of the Technical Costs can be readily reduced if we didn't have 101 fools thinking themselves major effect film students trying to do mini-film features. This has done more to dilute magic than just about anything else in the past 50 years, in that it frequently misrepresents the effect(s) being promoted. More so when the typically short and carefully edited clips of an effect don't reveal a full performance that allows people to see exactly what the handling looks like . . . in many ways it's merchants playing a monte trick on us in that they know what they are offering is questionable and easily understood by a trained mind.

I know that I've not included all the tech support factor and what that entails, but I do believe that most such pieces have far too many cooks involved with the making of the stew as well as too many contrived reasons to legitimize high prices. When it comes to physical props, there are some artistically beautiful pieces out there that are NOT deceptively practical and in many ways, a bit obvious when it comes to how they operate or at least giving the laity something to question. It's not that we're looking at a bad effect, just poorly thought out magic designs that typically come about as the result of inexperience and a lack of study. I could be prejudice however, because of the philosophies and standards found in grand illusion, which is what I compare these smaller props with; deception within design is paramount when it comes to our craft and all the more so when it comes to smaller items the public can or will handle. When I find myself holding a P.O.S. prop and the developer claims to have invested hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of dollars into the R & D. . . well, there's serious reason to question things, especially when it comes to price. I've helped develop award winning grand illusion systems in which the R&D didn't break the $20,000.00 mark so I'm pretty certain some of today's developers are selling more Horse Pucky & Hype to justify higher prices vs. truth.

BUT. . . Magic Has Always Been Expensive and it has to be. One side of the issue is protection of the secrets, which has become a huge problem in our current times; today's innovators & writers have less than 60 days to make their money on whatever they put out. Frequently it takes less than 3 weeks after a new piece hits the market for it to get exposed on Youtube and similar outlets let alone illegal copies of books and even video being posted to file share sites. The other reason certain things are pricy has to do with craftsmanship; the finer and more meticulous a piece, the greater skill and expertize is required which is why gaffed coins, finger rings, etc. can get very costly, fast! Handcrafted boxes fall into this same niche in that it takes very long hours to put certain pieces together, all of it requiring very special skills that took years to develop. When you toss in the "man hours" around such things; especially when it comes to industry standards and what such work is actually worth ($30.00 -- $50.00 or more an hour), we're getting a heck of a great deal most of the time.

The other reason for high cost is to keep the cream of the crop material out of the hands of the novice and wannabe. That might sound cruel and elitist but there simply is no reason for a 16 year old kid to have access to the information found in a Neal Scryer or Jerome Finley composition (as an example). I've seen posts recently, of kids that have three or for advanced books on Mentalism and yet, they've not read Corinda or Annemann; they bought these other materials because they were part of the current rave vs. where they were at in reality. The result of this expensive venture what that some poor-little-rich-kid was overwhelmed and confused . . . ultimately forced to realize that you can't just throw money at things and skip the requisites that allow you to incorporate that higher level material.

Yes, a lot of things in today's magic retail have changed since my days of interaction; Magic is being "managed" with an entirely different kind of Business 101 mind-set which I understand but don't fully condone. . . an example as to why is my stumbling over a "nifty gadget site" a few weeks ago and finding a top end gimmick being marketed to the general public market by a noted magic maker. As a performer I'd be very ticked, knowing that any clown with a credit card can buy a device I paid $150.00 for as a focal point in my act. Yet, this new way of doing business and pushing product has given today's magic merchants justification -- a philosophy that, as I've intimated at, is hurting our craft.

I've complained for years about the cost of magic. . . Cups & Balls should never cost hundreds of dollars unless they're gold plated or extra special in way of the possible gimmicks added to them; even $50.00 for simple spun aluminum & knit balls is a bit outrageous. Yet, for as long as WE are willing to step up to the counter and pay such fees, the prices will remain and will continue to grow.

I've vented sufficiently; hopefully it will make a bit of sense to most.

cc100 wrote:I'm getting quite frustrated by the ever increasing prices of magic products. Why are books and DVDs on magic so expensive? You'd normally expect to pay between £8-£20 for a book at a high street bookstore, and maybe £10-20 on a DVD. Why should the fact that a book or DVD is about magic justify almost double the price? I appreciate there are exceptions - classic books like Royal Road and TEATCT are relatively cheap - but I do find it annoying that single DVDs or even slim books attract such hefty price tags.

Hi there. This site is very nice, and cheap compared to most places.. And the guy that runs it ain't to bad either.. www.wermagic.co.uk

Keeps the riff raff out

1) Research and development. Good effects need road testing.
2) Prevent exposure. Most people won't do an exposure on youtube if they've paid £200 for the secret.
3) Restrict access. If everyone knows, it's no longer magic.
4) Because they can. Although price is never a guarantor of a great effect (sadly). PMM is pennies really yet it contains a treasure trove of information. Pity it's so dull! Other DVD's are in excess of £30 but you can find out most of what's in them free by watching scamschool - such is life!

That's my list anyway!

I only trust certain names. Annemann, Corinda, Becker, vernon, and more slightly modern names like Cassidy, Osterlind, Banackek, Maven and this side of the pond, Nyman, Nardi, Spellman. Not because they're my favourite performers (although most are) but because they're Names I can trust to give me value for money and not rip me off with some 2 bit schoolboy youtube prank.

Besides, with respect to mentalism, I can happily entertain people for 15 minutes with a pen and paper. Throw in a few envelopes and a newspaper and I could do a stage show. Not that expensive at all once you know how. I thinks that's when it all starts to pay off. Just my humble and meek opinion.

Pip-pip

K

The prices of textbooks on any specialist subject are many times more than current best selling novels.

Mandrake wrote:The prices of textbooks on any specialist subject are many times more than current best selling novels.

My textbooks are about £24.00, but my Sage Handbook of Comparative Politics is £80, while the four volume set on human rights is £550.00

Liber Mentis is only £100

Cheers

Todd

DrTodd wrote:

Mandrake wrote:The prices of textbooks on any specialist subject are many times more than current best selling novels.

My textbooks are about £24.00, but my Sage Handbook of Comparative Politics is £80, while the four volume set on human rights is £550.00

Liber Mentis is only £100

Cheers

Todd

Do you have any UK sellers for Liber Mentis? Most I see are in the US?

K

Various reasons, many of which have already been mentioned. Not all of these apply to every situation, and some overlap a bit:

1. Relatively low sale volumes/small target audience.
2. To reflect development time, especially for items that have come from the performer's act.
3. Not wanting to sell oneself short (especially with material taken from one's act).
4. To discourage the merely curious and restrict the numbers who can use the material.
5. To discourage those who've paid top dollar from passing on the information.
6. To generate buzz.
7. To reflect rarity (usually self-imposed).
8. To maximise profit.
9. Because they can.

There are a number of ironies, but I'll touch upon one that Craig's mentioned. Part of the reason the kids have got the more advanced texts is because there is a buzz generated by the price/rarity. Even if the author wanted the material kept exclusive, there's no reason why a rich kid couldn't buy it (although there are some producers who vet purchasers).

Also, a high price and extremely limited editions may actually encourage illegal sharing, which could be said to increase the chances of the material falling into the "wrong" hands, while people who would have been more respectful just accept that they will miss out. As I think I have mentioned before, it is very strange how many people seem to know the details of Derren Brown's Lift and Reminiscence effects, both of which were only in a very limited first edition run of Pure Effect. In this case, the high price comes from rarity value (as very few people knew who Derren was when he wrote the first edition).

In a way, less limited editions (no, not "fewer"!) make even less sense. A book that's limited to 1,000 copies isn't limited enough to restrict the numbers of people with the information in a meaningful sense, but it is enough to allow resales a few years later at a big mark-up (if the book is any good). In a situation like that, why not make a profit for the author/publisher instead? I suppose they value getting the first batch quickly sold over making a larger sum over time, but it seems odd to me.

Kev, I trust Osterlind, Banachek and Maven and I trust Bob Cassidy's material, but years after I have paid for certain items that have never appeared! Luckily, I do trust Jheff, who seems to handle Bob's output nowadays.

One point that no-one has mentioned yet - most magic stuff comes from the US, and at the usual magic exchange rate of $1=£1 it's much more expensive here in the UK. If we want to order direct from the US there are heavy postage charges and import duties (except on books).

Barry

To cc10 - In terms of your magic hobby, do you self-identify more as a collector of magic, or more as a practitioner of magic?
If you identify more as the former, then you probably have a point. Endlessly buying the latest 'hot' product each month is going to set you back a fair bit. If, on the other hand, you self-identify more as the latter (performer) I would find the question itself rather baffling.

Say I buy a DVD or book on card magic for £30. For the sake of argument let's say there are 15 card routines in the book/ DVD. For me to study, practice and rehearse each routine to the point where I would feel comfortable performing them would take me at least a year (if I am to give the effects any justice). So, from this point-of-view I have gained a years worth of 'fun' (for varying values of 'fun') for £30. That's equivalent to £2.50 per month. Looking at it from this point of view, magic is one of the cheapest hobbies there is.

I made the mistake of bringing out a kids DVD this year. It cost me €3,000 to shoot and edit, and roughly €6 every time I send out a copy. And I sell it for €20. At the current rate of sales it will several years before I recoup my costs. That is why magic products are so dear. The producers run the risk of losing money when they produce specialist material with a small market.

At the moment there is a new book out on the Book of Kells, an early Irish illuminated manuscript. It costs €80, and is cheap for the price. The latest James Patterson novel will cost €15, and I feel is over priced until it drops below a tenner. But despite the price disparity, Patterson will make a hell of a lot more money than the guy who spent years preparing the book on the Book of Kells.

Forget theories. I've been creating successful magic props for a few years now, so let's take an example of the sums...

Suppose you have researched for a while and can reliably make a new gimmick for £20. You've road tested it, written some great routines, beta tested it (at a cost of £20 per beta tester) and it's ready to roll. The first task is to get that production cost as low as possible. Buying parts for 100 units brings the unit component costs down to £18, so your outlay is already £1,800. You need to put them together. Supposing this takes an hour each. At £20/hour that's £2,000 in hidden labour costs. Already you're up to £3,800. What about packaging? That could be another £250. So, the total production spend is over £4,000. A snazzy video could add 50% to this figure, but let's keep it simple (we're also ignoring the £100s you spent developing the gimmick).

Now, the usual rule of thumb in deciding a retail price for any product is 3 times the unit production cost. Unit production cost is £40, so you're looking at an RRP of around £120. This looks like it'd give you a very healthy profit of £80/unit or £8,000 in total, and this is where most people stop thinking, believing that's all there is to it. How wrong they are...

If you go it alone, you'll need to push and advertise the gimmick yourself. Not many people have the sheer front or the deep pockets for that. Over a year, this might cost £2,000 to take out ads on forums and in magic mags, and to buy a stand at some of the smaller conventions (plus transport, time and hotels). You'll go crazy doing that, so you also need dealers to sell your product for you. Most are happy with 35% of retail for doing so, but some want as much as 50%. So that apparently healthy profit dwindles before your eyes. Are you drop shipping or are the dealers buying stock? If you're shipping direct, your margin will be lower due to postage. You still need to pay income tax on what's left, remember, so you might need to take off another 20%. You could be left with a net profit of just £2,000 spread across the year. That's the equivalent of less than two sales a month.

Just to stay afloat, you need to create a succession of perennial sellers, trudge the country selling nothing at conventions and smiling while you do so, recruit an army of dealers, develop as wide a product line as possible, and all while trying not to drink like a fish or lie awake at night worrying. It can be done, however. People do it every day. It's just a lot of work.