talkmagic.co.uk

I've been performing card magic for several years, and recently I came across a website where one can design home education courses for the benefit of others. One designs the course, sets a price, and, once it has been posted, anybody can purchase the course and the creator retains a certain percentage of the profit (it's not a particularly high percentage, IMO, but better than a kick in the teeth). I immediately thought of doing a course on card magic, then I got to thinking about copyright.

Of course, one cannot copyright a technique. I could, for instance, teach the classic force and the Elmsley count without fear of a law suit or a guilty conscience. But what if I wanted to teach 'Oil and Water' or 'Out Of This World'? Are there copyrights on magic tricks? Paul Curry, creator of 'Out Of This World' has been dead for nearly 20 years, but the copyright on books and music extends 75 years after the author's death.

More to the point, even if one cannot copyright a magic trick, is it ethical to write a book or design a course making money teaching tricks that one did not create oneself?

It should go without saying, but I want to make it abundantly clear that I would never, ever dream of teaching a trick I knew to be part of the repertoire of any contemporary working magician. For instance, I own Derren Brown's DVD 'The Devil's Picture Book' and can perform 'Smoke', 'Extreme Mental Effort' and several other of his favourite card tricks. Needless, to say, I wouldn't ever reveal those. The only tricks I would consider revealing would be tricks that had been around for a very long time like 'Haunted Deck' or 'Signed Card in a Shoe'. Would I be breaking any unwritten rules in the magic community by designing a course focussing on old school beginner's tricks?

This is the first time I've ever really had cause to think about copyright ethics as they pertain to magic, and I'm not really sure where I stand. Any help you could provide would be enormously appreciated.

Many thanks!

Ethical? Not really; but that doesn't stop most folk.

What's your timescale / criteria on tricks you would teach?

There are so many effects on the open market that have no more claim. I imagine most of the effects in Tarbell are free for the taking.

What I find more troublesome than your issue is that I hope you are more qualified to teach than the tutorials on youtube. I fear they are breeding a further disregard for magic simply because they are executed and taught so poorly.

Lawrence wrote:Ethical? Not really; but that doesn't stop most folk.

What's your timescale / criteria on tricks you would teach?

I hope to have the course finished in about 6 months. I want to do as good a job as I can so I don't want to rush it. The kind of tricks I would teach include:

• Oil and Water.
• Out Of This World.
• Haunted Deck.
• Signed Card in Shoe.
• Rising Card.

Plus a bunch of other old standards. There won't be any surprises for even junior magicians. My aim is to create a course for absolute beginners who don't know a single trick. I'd also cover things like the Elmsley count, DL, breaks, forces, palms, stuff like that.

bmat wrote:What I find more troublesome than your issue is that I hope you are more qualified to teach than the tutorials on youtube. I fear they are breeding a further disregard for magic simply because they are executed and taught so poorly.

I certainly hope so too. I am a teacher by profession, as it happens (English, not magic, unfortunately) so I know how to plan lessons effectively, and I like to think I've got a good manner. I guess I'm just going to have to try and keep on top of things as I go and judge the finished product as objectively as I can. It goes without saying that if I can't beat the standard of the average YouTube tutorial, I certainly wouldn't dream of charging anyone to take my course. Come to think of it, it'd probably be a good idea to post the occasional video here and get some decent feedback.

Sounds like an interesting project!

With regards to this comment:

More to the point, even if one cannot copyright a magic trick, is it ethical to write a book or design a course making money teaching tricks that one did not create oneself?

It seems to be a bit of a grey area.

Personally, I don't think it matters a great deal if you are selling "open source" material - As long as you are not "selling" the secrets of creators who are still alive and kicking effectively taking potential sales away from them (which you have already said you are not) and the original creators of the effect (if you know who they are) are fully credited then I can't see an issue with it - of course I may be wrong.

I'm going to say a few things here and I hope you don't take them the wrong way. While I do like the idea of this there are a few things you may want to think about, the first is a pet peev of mine.

There has been an influx of instructional material (instant downloads, ebooks etc) over the last few years, much of which is not very good - the internet allowing any Tom, Dick or Harry to be "self published". One of the reasons for the poor quality is that some are being made by folk that are still at an early learning stage themselves. Do you believe, after 3 years in magic you have learned enough to now teach ? I'm not saying you haven't, just something to think about.

You may have some problems with a few of the effects you listed,


Haunted Deck - you'll have to think carefully about which version you're teaching, you shouldn't expose lo**s or the ITR. If you explain a self contained version which they need to go out and buy then its technically just exposure.

Out of This World - I'm not sure this is really for the absolute beginner.

Signed Card in Shoe - Palming is definitely not a beginners sleight.

As I said, I do like the idea of it, provided it was done properly - by properly I mean all the subtleties, misdirection, sleights, presentation, timing and so forth. A five minute expose of the mechanics is of no real use to anyone.


If you do decide to go ahead I wish you luck.


Jim

How about just teaching everything that's on BBM's new self working DVD?

Tanglewood wrote:

Lawrence wrote:Ethical? Not really; but that doesn't stop most folk.

What's your timescale / criteria on tricks you would teach?

I hope to have the course finished in about 6 months. I want to do as good a job as I can so I don't want to rush it. The kind of tricks I would teach include:

• Oil and Water.
• Out Of This World.
• Haunted Deck.
• Signed Card in Shoe.
• Rising Card.

Plus a bunch of other old standards. There won't be any surprises for even junior magicians. My aim is to create a course for absolute beginners who don't know a single trick. I'd also cover things like the Elmsley count, DL, breaks, forces, palms, stuff like that.

bmat wrote:What I find more troublesome than your issue is that I hope you are more qualified to teach than the tutorials on youtube. I fear they are breeding a further disregard for magic simply because they are executed and taught so poorly.

I certainly hope so too. I am a teacher by profession, as it happens (English, not magic, unfortunately) so I know how to plan lessons effectively, and I like to think I've got a good manner. I guess I'm just going to have to try and keep on top of things as I go and judge the finished product as objectively as I can. It goes without saying that if I can't beat the standard of the average YouTube tutorial, I certainly wouldn't dream of charging anyone to take my course. Come to think of it, it'd probably be a good idea to post the occasional video here and get some decent feedback.

Glad to hear it. And good luck.