talkmagic.co.uk

Hey guys,

As you have seen by my recent posts, I am looking to upgrade my magic arsenal to include more tricks and a wider range of routines and tricks (adding Rope, Coins and a Cup and Balls / Chop Cup routine).

Now has come to look at what you guys class as a very strong / reliable cups and balls or chop cup routine.

For the record / to help with any advice, I have an ANCIENT set of cups and balls, complete with a book by Dai Vernon and a Morrisey Chop Cup (with DVD called 'Supercharged Classics' which teaches a really nice routine).

I am after advice on what people thing is best - a nice chop cup routine, a cups and balls routine, a mixture of both with a wand and or chop cup

Thanks in advance,

Dan

There are some lovely cups and balls routines out there, Tommy Wonder and Bill Malone are my favourites and well worth having a look at. I think they're both on the Worlds Greatest Cups and Balls DVD.

Hi Dan.

The first thing to consider is where you will be performing. If you have the luxury of your own space complete with table then a full Cups and Balls routine will be an exellent addition to your set. If table space is an issue (such as in tabble hopping) then a small Chop Cup will be more appropriate.

The actual routine you use should fit your style, the same is true regarding whether or not to use a wand.

I personally use a traditional style 3 cup routine, complete with wand and fruit climax.

The Complete Cups and Balls dvds by Michael Ammar are highly recommended - I consider him a true master of the effect. Vernons routine is taught (very well, Vernon taught Michael personally), and also wand spins, the Vernon/Mora vanish and basic wand handling as well - should you decide to use one. The main focus of the dvds however, is to give you the tools to create your own personal routine.

Jim

Here is a pic of my cups and balls and the book I have - I think it is his classic routine, but yes, its not taught in order, more a collection of moves, ideas and such so that you can create your own style

http://instagram.com/p/hLsdNAiPrn/

Dan

That's a very nice set you have there. A traditional style performance would suit those props very well (provided it also suits your style of course).

If you are going to work on your own routine, rather than doing someone elses try to work it out both in sections, and also as a whole - a good solid introduction, middle section and ending. Think carefully about the middle section as this is where (in my opinion) most routines fall flat. It is very easy to have this section too long, too repetitive, or just confusing. Think carefully about what each actual efffect is - a lot of routines have the same basic effects repeated several times, balls moving from one cup to another for example. While the magician may be using several different methods to accomplish this, to the spectator it is the same thing repeated over and over. Try to understand exactly what the effect of each part is - vanish, appearance, penetration, flight and so on, and pick one or perhaps two sequences which clearly demonstrates each actual effect.

If you haven't done anything with the cups yet then I recommend you learn an established routine first, before attempting to create your own - the Vernon routine you have is as good a place as any.

Jim

I don't do the cups and balls very much these days, but when I do (just for fun, normally family/friends) the routine in Mark Wilson is what seems to flow naturally. I've added a few bits and bobs, but I still think it's a solid and simple routine. When I worked in Hawkin's Bazaar for a while and used this routine to sell heaps of them.

The Ammar DVD set is excellent, almost an encyclopaedia of cups and balls moves. To see some established routines, the World's Greatest Magic DVD on cups and balls is excellent. Even if it's just to see the discussion with Michael Ammar and Dai Vernon about his routine. Well worth the price of the DVD.
If you're on a budget (I always am) there's an old book, I think by Tom Osborne, which you can pick up really cheap (I think I paid about £2.50 for it at Tam Shepherds in Glasgow) which cover a lot of moves and routines.

If you are going to work on your own routine, rather than doing someone else's try to work it out both in sections, and also as a whole - a good solid introduction, middle section and ending. Think carefully about the middle section as this is where (in my opinion) most routines fall flat. It is very easy to have this section too long, too repetitive, or just confusing. Think carefully about what each actual effect is - a lot of routines have the same basic effects repeated several times, balls moving from one cup to another for example. While the magician may be using several different methods to accomplish this, to the spectator it is the same thing repeated over and over. Try to understand exactly what the effect of each part is - vanish, appearance, penetration, flight and so on, and pick one or perhaps two sequences which clearly demonstrates each actual effect.

Just wanted to quote this because it's brilliant advice.

You're right, its brilliant advice - at the moment I am trying to find as many sources for this trick as I can - Ideally I'd find an AMAZING routine that I just fall in love with (had a lucky find with Darwin Ortiz's Cannibal Cards routine, its AMAZING imo and way better / stronger / cleaner (looking) than any other routine I've ever seen).

Youtube is good, but quality isnt great and its obviously only the performances (or 12 year olds with their 'amazing' tutorials ...), however, I found a Ricky Jay video demo called 'the history lesson' with an AMAZING little flourish / move. I'll post the video here and explain the section I thing would be great to use in a longer routine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgm4wZCACYg

Its the bit he does at 1:20 - 1:51 first of all to demo how you can move balls and its used as a gambling trick / scam as well as a magic trick.
(Amazing use of a chop cup within the cups and balls, which I haven't seen used as much as I would have thought in a cups and balls routine?)

I also really like the bit he does at 2:10 - 2:50 which again utlisises the chop cup aspect of his props.

Just throwing ideas out at the moment - more using this forum as a 'progression' thread, so admins, feel free to move to 'tricks and routines' if you feel that would be a better place for this

Dan

Are your cups of the combination variety, with chop feature ?

Both parts you mentioned can also be done with a regular set of cups and sleight of hand - albeit not as cleanly.

Michael Vincent uses the chop feature in his cups routine - one of the things he uses it for is to make a ball on top of a cup vanish to effect a penetration, just as Ricky Jay does. Michael also has a sequence where a ball travels up through the cup instead of down. The move used to show that the ball hasn't arrived yet could also be used as a vanish, and is an option for the ball through cup effect (should you want to show that the ball isn't there).
If you are comfortable holding out with either hand you could get a sequence pretty much like the three shell one, with sleight of hand.

The cups I use have a chop feature, but I am currently not using it - I replaced the balls years ago with a set of Mike Rogers mini baseballs. I prefered the 5 8ths of an inch balls and these didn't come in a chopped set (these were only available in the 1inch size). The chop feature does offer some nice oppertunities though, and can certainly add some nice subtleties to many of the classic moves/sequences.
I came up with a few ideas while I was using the chopped balls. One of the things I came up with was for the ball through cup effect which you mentioned. Contrary to most procedures at this point, I wanted to gain possesion of the vanished ball that was between the two cups for the next part (I can't remember exactly what the next part was now), and I also wanted it to look as clean and simple as possible - as far as the audience was concerned. What I came up with allowed the ball to pass through the cup (as usual) then to immedietley show both cups (and my hands) empty, while secretely gaining possesion of the ball. It used the chop feature in a way which, as far as I'm aware, is unique. The angles aren't great if you're surrounded, or have people on your extreme left, but for a typical cups and balls performance with the audience in front it works well. If you decide to use a chop cup I'll be happy to send you the method.

On a slightly different note - the set you have would look great on a dark red/crimson or burgundy cloth/mat. I have written on here before about the use of light and shade for the cups and balls (I'm not sure where though).


Jim

Magical_Trevor wrote:Hey guys,

As you have seen by my recent posts, I am looking to upgrade my magic arsenal to include more tricks and a wider range of routines and tricks (adding Rope, Coins and a Cup and Balls / Chop Cup routine).

Now has come to look at what you guys class as a very strong / reliable cups and balls or chop cup routine.

For the record / to help with any advice, I have an ANCIENT set of cups and balls, complete with a book by Dai Vernon and a Morrisey Chop Cup (with DVD called 'Supercharged Classics' which teaches a really nice routine).

I am after advice on what people thing is best - a nice chop cup routine, a cups and balls routine, a mixture of both with a wand and or chop cup

Thanks in advance,

.

Dan

I don't class the cups and balls as strong. I don't class any effect as strong. I class a performance of an effect strong or weak.

I've seen brilliant routines done with foam coffee cups and balled up napkins.

As stated you have to look at venue. Are you at a restaurant or a pub performing? Perhaps space is limited and a single cup and ball routine or chop cup may be a better way to go.

Are you a neat freak? then you would want your equipment to be shiny and pristine. Are you like me? Fairly relaxed? then a nice tarnish on a copper cup looks good. (or in my case I use wooden cups and they look well used).

Try to figure out exactly the story you are trying to tell, your story, and create a routine around it. That will always work best.

Most of all, have fun with it, so many directions one can go. And there are few tricks that encompass all forms of magic such as the cups and balls. Well worth putting a routine together, if even just for the education

Hey,

Thanks again for all the advice - I've been looking for a new mat so have ordered a crimson one and am going to get my nan, and all her sewing genius-ness to sew me a matching coloured bag for the cups and balls to reside in. I may have to get her to make a second bag as I was pointed in the direction of a James Swain DVD (From a mate who saw my post and has dove in to help out) who does an AWESOME chop cup routine, with a killer ending, with a second load inside the bag, its worth a watch (Im sure its on youtube somewhere).
On this note, I have realised that my balls are rather grubby ... how do you clean yours? or is it just better to see if a magic shop will order fresh ones? do I get some made (if so, please do suggest where) and what short should I use? I really like the idea of little baseballs (I have a large baseball which could work as a final load), I love the idea of gorilla knots, with a jumbo load, I've also seen multi coloured balls ... so much to consider, so much fun
[On the above note, sorry if I am being a little hyper about this - I've not had this awesome feeling of creating and trying new tricks for a long time and am very much getting into it 100% haha]

I dont want to repeat on threads either, but what do people suggest for final loads? I have seen the following and will describe each with my thoughts, please please please jump in and discuss

Lemons and Limes ... Citrus fruits all round really.
Gazzo uses them (6 I think?), Paul Daniel does for his chop cup double load and many UK magicians do in their routines - the 'Mark James' (off his DVD supercharged classics) approach and reasoning is that it just makes people laugh, which is always fun and gives them something to remember that is fun, magical and entertaining.
I like this idea - it works to make people laugh and you can buy them almost anywhere and are dirt cheap - plus I;ve seen fake lemons and limes so that you could even use them as emergency loads

Baseballs, High Ligh (spelling), Tennis balls or large juggling balls.
I work in Tennis 7 months a year so a Tennis final load would REALLY work for me on the road - ideally I;d love to use them with mini tennis balls (and would need a chop cup compatible one, so may be an issue).
Baseballs work really well too, I feel that I'd need to use mini baseballs too if I had 3 final loads.
Mixture of balls - pool balls, tennis, baseball etc could work but I'd want to make a sport themed routine to go with it.

Food in general.
I lot of american routines I've seen use Turnips, Potatoes, Tomatoes, Onions etc as their final loads ... I honestly just dont get this, and am after your thoughts. I dont understand how they make sense and dont think (unless I can get swung by you guys) that I'd be able to get 100% behind the trick that sort of confuses me still hahaha

Animals.
I have seen a hamster produced as a final load, but I dont have any and wouldnt feel right buying a hamster or gerbil JUST for a magic trick hahaha Plus I have a cat, and I think he might eat said Hamster ...

The BEST final load I've seen ... and has inspired me to create a truly original routine. (or buy the DVD its from and learn it - its THAT good and honestly threw me for six).
I wont spoil it, but here is the routine for you all to see
Its David Regal by the way, so expect nothing but greatness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_km0-c-n2g" target="_blank

Thanks again and please do reply and discuss

Dan

I've performed cups and balls using large yogurt pots and marshmallows. The final load was loads of marshmallows. The audience comprised eight five-year olds. They seemed appreciative of the sweets at the end, if nothing else.
T.

Hi again. Its nice to see someone so enthusiastic about this classic.

If you make the bag slightly longer than is necessary (for the cups) it will give you some additional space which is handy for certain set-ups. Also make sure the bag is loose enough to be removed easily. This may seem obvious but I had to replace the bag my cups came in as it was a tad too tight for easy removal. If you are holding out as you remove the cups this is even more important.

My Mini Baseballs aren't pure white any more either, but they fit nicely with the aesthetics of my props as a whole - the set looks old. I prefer a slightly off-white shade - this prevents them from looking new (which wouldn't fit with my cups) but ensures they still stand out. I DO NOT advise the use of dark balls - with the exeption of a performer who wears light or bright coloured clothes. The balls - up until the appearance of the final loads - are the most important thing on the table and it is imperative that they can be seen clearly. Your mat is your stage and your clothes the backdrop - the cups are the props and the little balls are the main characters. The main characters are the focus and should stand out and be seen clearly.

I have washed a few sets of the knitted variety of balls - both with a cork ball centre and plastic ball. I haven't washed a rubber centered one but assume it would be much the same. They washed fine in the machine and had no adverse effect on the balls. The only difference was the material was slightly (barely noticable) tighter around the ball when dried.

What balls you should use is entirely up to you. Different materials handle differently and weight is also a factor regarding manipulation. I personally prefer the slightly heavier weight of the mini baseballs (compared to the cork variety) and they have better grip for me (they are leather stitched over a rubber ball). The weight is also good for the Vernon/Mora vanish.
You could certainly get custom balls made if you wanted, but unless you require something really specific you'll find most types are widely available - usually with a variety of sizes and colours for each type.

Before deciding on your final loads you should check they will fit first. You mention tennis balls but a lot of cups won't take a regular tennis ball without jamming. Mini tennis balls are available for the cups (I can't remember where but I seen them on some magic site), I'm not sure if they are available for the Chop Cup though. The use of pool balls or similar require "dampeners" to be added to the inside of the cups to prevent clanging. David regal uses this for the routine you posted - which can also be found in "Constant Fooling vol 1, which is where I first came across it.
The final loads should ideally fit three criteria (there are exeptions of course) 1 - they should be a surprise, 2 - they should be solid, 3 - they should appear to have filled the cups. With this in mind it will be seen that almost ANYTHING could be used as final loads. The turnip and tomato you mentioned fill the criteria and are just as valid as a lemon or a mouse and make just as much, or as little, sense. You're patter and general routine will dictate what makes sense or not. For example the first final load that is revealed in Michael Ammars routine is the turnip. He leads into this by putting the last ball away and saying he'll just snap "and we never know what will turn up ....get it, turnip" and he lifts the cup for the reveal. Most final loads, if you think about it, don't make much sense in themselves. It is up to us to give them sense, to give them context.

For the record I use Ammars fab fruit as final loads. I have the lemon, lime, tomato and turnip.


Jim

Again going back to working in Hawkins, they sold loads of little bits that i really liked. One was a yellow foam (but not very squishy) ball with a smiley face on one side. They fit perfectly in my cups and almost looked too big for them after the reveal. Same with any of the balls or small toys that lit up when you hit them off something. Again, the flashing light almost makes it seem bigger...

My favorite was a clockwork chick, which was a great fit, then ran around once the cup was lifted. But of work to hold them out wound up but not going, but plenty of ways to do it...

I like sponge bunnies as a final load as a call back to having done the sponge bunnies earlier on in my set.

I use eye balls. Found great ones in a halloween shop a few years back. For a final load I use a fairly largish brain. First you have to keep you eye on the ball. But it doesn't matter because everything happens in your mind.