talkmagic.co.uk

Yesterday I downloaded a 2 trick download, but only really wanted to learn one of them. It cost $10 so I thought this was good value. About half way through, a move was used that wasnt theirs to teach and they suggested going to another site to learn the move. When I did this, the move was on a $20 download. No alternative handling was provided to not use this move.

Nowhere on the first site did it suggest that this was needed, and the move is discrete, so I wasnt able to see it from the demo. As nice as the routine is, it isnt a $30 routine.

I wondered if anyone else had fallen foul to the same thing as me, and if they did anything about it. I was thnking about emailing the site, but wondered if it would do me any good?

Any help would be much appreciated (I realise I may just have to chalk this up to experience, but thought I'd ask here first)

I would do two things; I would go after the site for a full refund, and I would not pussyfoot around - tell us all what the trick was so that we do not fall for it too.

Ive just sent an email, i havent asked for a refund, but asked if they could amend the description to make others more aware of the real cost of the routine. The trick was 'Homage to Homing' by John Guastaferro from Vanishing Inc, and it relied on using the Asher Twist by Lee Asher. I havent had any concerns with Vanishing Inc when ive used them in the past, so hopefully this will get resolved.

Relish wrote:Ive just sent an email, i havent asked for a refund, but asked if they could amend the description to make others more aware of the real cost of the routine. The trick was 'Homage to Homing' by John Guastaferro from Vanishing Inc, and it relied on using the Asher Twist by Lee Asher. I havent had any concerns with Vanishing Inc when ive used them in the past, so hopefully this will get resolved.

I love the Asher twist. Really hard to explain in print. Can you do a half pass? I ask because what the Asher twist will accomplish is turning a card over in a small packet, like a packet of four, a half pass will also accomplish this with a modification.

I had an email from Vanishing Inc saying that they werent able to list any of the moves involved as this may lead to understanding how the routine was done. I'm not entirely satisfied with this, as buying a £20 table and finding out you need a £40 screwdriver to put it together would be ridiculous. At least if the site suggested that you would need to spend $20 more to perform the routine (without naming the sleight), it would make the decision to buy a lot more informed.


re the Asher twist, from the demo it looks amazing. However im currently learning and practicing other sleights and so dont have the time to move onto this one. Thanks for the suggestion bmat, I could see the one card turning over, but as the other 3 were face down, it was difficult to track if they were displaced at all. Maybe i'll have to track them through the demo and then try and modify my half pass.

they werent able to list any of the moves involved as this may lead to understanding how the routine was done

Sounds like a copout to me. Customers should receive more respect than that.

if the site suggested that you would need to spend $20 more to perform the routine (without naming the sleight), it would make the decision to buy a lot more informed.

An excellent observation and one which would apply to other sites and routines at times!

Relish wrote:Yesterday I downloaded a 2 trick download, but only really wanted to learn one of them. It cost $10 so I thought this was good value.

I put on my maths cap and gave this a think. You spent $5 per trick. Then I counted the tricks in my one book, "Mark Wilson's Complete Course In Magic." Not counting tricks that require special cards or gimmicks, and ignoring methods, and further taking out the stage magic part, I got tired of counting when I hit 200. I paid $26.95 for that hard bound book which, going by $5 per trick, is actually worth well over $1,000 - I think I got a deal.

I'm sorry that you got ripped off by the underhanded way in which you were sold this trick that you cannot use, but it is my personal consideration that instant download tricks are a rip off, anyway.

i agree that the cost of downloads is high, and usually buy books, but I was looking for something specific.

I wanted a routine that could be done walk around with no table and from a shuffled deck in use to fit in with a series of tricks I am planning. The video demo showed me that this was suitable, but unfortuntely a brief description of a trick from a book often doesnt go into this much detail (sometimes theres only a name).

I'm currently making my way through classic books (real books and ebooks from the L+L website) but this was going to be a quicker way to add a trick ready for a wedding im doing for a friend in July. Was being the operative word.

Boris wrote:

Relish wrote:Yesterday I downloaded a 2 trick download, but only really wanted to learn one of them. It cost $10 so I thought this was good value.

I put on my maths cap and gave this a think. You spent $5 per trick. Then I counted the tricks in my one book, "Mark Wilson's Complete Course In Magic." Not counting tricks that require special cards or gimmicks, and ignoring methods, and further taking out the stage magic part, I got tired of counting when I hit 200. I paid $26.95 for that hard bound book which, going by $5 per trick, is actually worth well over $1,000 - I think I got a deal.

I'm sorry that you got ripped off by the underhanded way in which you were sold this trick that you cannot use, but it is my personal consideration that instant download tricks are a rip off, anyway.

The Mark Wilson book, at 5 times that price is one of the best books in magic. And has been for years. Relish was looking for something specific.

You know, this craft is one of the few places where the expected consumer rights fly out the window. This sort of nonsense wouldn't be tolerated in any other field.

If you have bought a download that promised to teach you a trick, but it doesn't, then under consumer law the product doesn't do what it claims to do and you are entitled to a full refund. The fact that they haven't got permission to teach Lees sleight is moot - they should have sorted this BEFORE releasing an effect which used it. If they can't teach the WHOLE trick then they simply shouldn't be implying you can learn it from them - and charging a fee.

If it was me I would be asking for my money back.


Jim

jim ferguson wrote:You know, this craft is one of the few places where the expected consumer rights fly out the window. This sort of nonsense wouldn't be tolerated in any other field.

If you have bought a download that promised to teach you a trick, but it doesn't, then under consumer law the product doesn't do what it claims to do and you are entitled to a full refund. The fact that they haven't got permission to teach Lees sleight is moot - they should have sorted this BEFORE releasing an effect which used it. If they can't teach the WHOLE trick then they simply shouldn't be implying you can learn it from them - and charging a fee.

If it was me I would be asking for my money back.


Jim

In the USA it actually falls under the catagory of 'bait and switch' and it is against the law. While 'bait and switch" implies that you advertize one thing and sell another it also means you can't promise that this item does that, and then not provide the necessary information that allows you to do what was advertized. If other tools are needed that must be documented on the packaging, as in the case of furniture that you have to build. It has to say that you will need a philipshead screw driver, a drill, a bit (with size) etc.

So yes to purchase an insturctional download and all the instruction to perform the effect are not there is just wrong.

What they've done is totally against trading standards, they can't advertise something and then for it not to deliver what was advertised. I'd mention reporting them to trading standards if they don't give you a refund and I think you'll find that they change their stance very quickly.

Lady of Mystery wrote:What they've done is totally against trading standards, they can't advertise something and then for it not to deliver what was advertised. I'd mention reporting them to trading standards if they don't give you a refund and I think you'll find that they change their stance very quickly.

Dearie me, my dear. There is no "trading standards" in the Excited States of America. We have no influence over there since they had the impertinence to kick us out years ago. However, I expect they have something similar although I always got the impression that they solve disputes over there either by sueing or shooting people.

Still, you are quite correct. And so is the original poster. I would get annoyed too although I have the ability to put hexes on people as retaliation. I suggest that if you do not get a satisfactory response you send an email explaining that we are all discussing the matter here. Magic companies fear negative comments on the internet and will come out of the woodwork faster than greased lightning to either explain themselves or issue a refund. I do agree with Tony. You should gather up your loins, be brave and demand a refund. It is the cost of doing business. And if you have already been spending money with them they should be happy to do so in order to encourage you to do spend even more. I do suspect that they will say, "why didn't you attempt to sort the matter out with us first before complaining on the internet about it?". You must of course ignore them. It seems to be the standard response when companies are complained about on the internet. They do have a point but you are probably young and impatient.

I did see some irritating you tube video purporting to explain the Asher twist. You could probably do a search for it. I couldn't abide the awful music so I scarpered away very quickly. Still, there may be other videos around of the move. Ironically I read a very good defence of all these awful internet videos that are around nowadays. The defence was by Lee Asher himself. Of course he probably wasn't referring to the videos of his own move.

Incidentally here is Lee Asher's very good defence of You Tube exposure. I am very old fashioned and do not approve but I will reluctantly admit he made a very good argument for it. http://www.leeasher.com/playground/arti ... osure.html" target="_blank

With regard to the original complaint I do have a very cynical suspicion that Vanishing Inc may have arranged this set up with Lee beforehand. A business ploy to bring both of them mutual benefit. I do know that he and Vanishing Inc get on quite well together. I am a great fan of wickedness of this nature. I am a svengali pitchman after all. The trouble is that I can get away with it since I never see my customers again. Magic dealers do and with internet forums like this the punters can complain loudly.

Of course I may well be wrong in my speculation. I will ask Lee when I see him since he lives in Toronto. Excuse me. I am just bored and wish to stir up trouble. Nature of the beast I am afraid. I bet my speculation will bring them out of the woodwork though.