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I have been lurking on this forum for quite a while now and I have drifted in and out of practicing cards and coins over the last few years. I have been doing a lot more performing of late as a (contact) juggler and I am a very active member in a number of juggling clubs where I teach and learn with others. I really enjoy the social aspect of these clubs.

This is where my question/point of discussion comes from. I believe that I am a very visual learner and that I pick things up at a reasonable speed once I have either seen it done in person or on video. I have for the last two years been slowly working my way through a few books on magic and learning mainly from the book. I have started trying to reference what I am learning from a couple of dvds that I have puchased and from youtube.

What I am finding interesting is how learning from a book seems to immediately create variations on the technique described and I am finding that if I learn something from a dvd then I do exactly as I see. I am interested to see what people on here see as a good balance to this?

As a follow on from the above, I would like to learn with/from others however the only club that is available to me involves an audition. This would involve me creating a routine which is something that I am not quite ready to do yet... unless of course they are happy with the object manipulation skills that I have developed as a juggler!!!

Would any of you advise me to contact advertised magicians in my area to see if they would be willing to give me some of there time or is this a big 'no' within the community?

Both forms of learning are excellent from books or DVD's. Here is the thing. I can almost always tell when somebody has learned something from a DVD. I can often tell from who they learned it from and this is because, as you said, one tends to copy exactly. I've seen people use the exact handling, patter and mannerisims of the person whom they learned it from when learned from a DVD. I've even heard other magicians use Micheal Ammars little nervous laugh because that is what he did on the DVD.

I will learn specific sleights from a DVD, but the actual effect almost always from a book because at some point you have to pull it off the page all by yourself and it is at that point that you begin to make it your own.

As for magic clubs and learning from other magicians in person? I'm really not a fan and you can peruse these boards on related subjects to see the pros and cons.

bmat wrote: I've even heard other magicians use Micheal Ammars little nervous laugh because that is what he did on the DVD.

There was a fairly well known aikido teacher who had long hair which he had to flick out of his eyes after a roll. After a while, people noticed his students would roll and then do the same flick.

Need to know why someone does things, not just what they do. Good DVDs can go in to that, but it's rare.

I like learning from books, video is useful to illustrate a certain way of doing things - there are some card sleights I needed to see IRL to understand the process.
In terms of learning alone or with others, I like learning on my own and then "sessioning" with others once I have my own thoughts and patter so I am not too much of a clone of someone else
Unlike my CJ where I shamelessly fail to be Okotanpe

I'm much more a fan of using books rather than DVDs, it's purely a personal thing. I find that if I take something from a book, I'm much more likely to add my own spin on it and think around the method, with a DVD as has been said it's far too easy to just copy the presentation as you see it and there's just something about curling up with dog eared old book that I love.

DVDs have their place but I think books are better. As far as personal tuition is concerned you have to be bloody careful. You have to be careful the person you are learning from is not hypercrap as most magicians usually are. You don't want the blind leading the blind and regretfully even if the person is a big name in magic it doesn't mean a thing because they often aren't as good as you believe them to be.

I thank my lucky stars that I never met a magician for the first two years of my study otherwise I would have been led down the wrong path entirely and been just as c*** (not the best) as everyone else. I have always been completely self taught and have very rarely listened to any of the twaddle any "magician" has ever imparted to me. Especially all the magazine heroes of today who know as much about the performance of magic as I do about the care and breeding of Japanese butterflies.

Books are a different matter especially the older ones. You can mull over things quietly and decide what is right or what is wrong. You will find the classic tomes are usually right. By all means join the magic club but don't be influenced by the members too much. Audition or not the odds are that the members will be just as useless as you are. At least that seems to be the case in magic clubs the world over. If you get three members in the club who are any good you will be doing very well. Oddly enough they will all agree with what I have just said but they will think it applies to others and not to them.

The only way you can really learn is to show magic to PEOPLE. They are the ones you really learn from. Magic is PEOPLE! As far as juggling is concerned most magicians don't know that much about it anyway. I once got a TV commercial job because they specifically wanted a bad juggler. I told them that I was a very bad juggler indeed and of course they hired me. So there may be hope for you yet.

I wish you luck with it.

As Mark said, the only real way to learn is to do it! You're not really doing magic if you're just at home practicing... You're only doing magic if you're performing for people!

And to really learn, you have to be very self critical about what you do, what worked and what didn't, (not just individual tricks, but how you did each trick, the elements within it, and so on...)

As far as juggling goes,I was a juggler before I moved in to magic, so, although I'm a little rusty now, if you're in London and you fancy a Mills Mess, a or a Rubenstien's Revenge...)

I think that, when you have done enough magic to develop your own style, you are less likely to merely copy a perfomance you see on a DVD. Whenever I watch a DVD, I find myself writing a script as I go along, or noting things I'd change, or add, or remove.

You have an advantage in already having some performance skills, so may I suggest you just take the time to think "How would I do that?" whenever you watch a DVD or (official of course) tutorial video. Make it an active part of your process when learning.

As to personal tutorials etc., I often feel that this desire is comes out of two things. First, a desire to progress rapidly and second, a feeling that you are not doing things right (or might not be). It's not necessarily both of these. I suppose you could boil them both down to confidence issues.

Initially, I think that doing a lot of performing is good. It's good for your nerves, you learn about your own style (I hope) and what stuff you like doing (which often reflects on what you do well, and vice versa) and you start learning how to deal with mistakes and people messing you around. Hint: It's just a magic trick, it doesn't really matter. Laugh it off.

Later, when you are more confident and competent, I think you can perform less (should you wish) and concentrate on making the performances more magical (or just plain better). I think this is the time to start learning about theory and showmanship. Yes, you can learn about that earlier, but I think it's best if you concentrate on doing "some tricks" early on.

Part-Timer wrote:I think that, when you have done enough magic to develop your own style, you are less likely to merely copy a perfomance you see on a DVD. Whenever I watch a DVD, I find myself writing a script as I go along, or noting things I'd change, or add, or remove.

You have an advantage in already having some performance skills, so may I suggest you just take the time to think "How would I do that?" whenever you watch a DVD or (official of course) tutorial video. Make it an active part of your process when learning.

As to personal tutorials etc., I often feel that this desire is comes out of two things. First, a desire to progress rapidly and second, a feeling that you are not doing things right (or might not be). It's not necessarily both of these. I suppose you could boil them both down to confidence issues.

Initially, I think that doing a lot of performing is good. It's good for your nerves, you learn about your own style (I hope) and what stuff you like doing (which often reflects on what you do well, and vice versa) and you start learning how to deal with mistakes and people messing you around. Hint: It's just a magic trick, it doesn't really matter. Laugh it off.

Later, when you are more confident and competent, I think you can perform less (should you wish) and concentrate on making the performances more magical (or just plain better). I think this is the time to start learning about theory and showmanship. Yes, you can learn about that earlier, but I think it's best if you concentrate on doing "some tricks" early on.

Just to add too this, if you don't concentrate on performing tricks early on, chances are you won't perform later on.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I am finding the views on clubs and tutition particularly interesting. It makes complete sense to me with regards creating individual style as you are always influenced by your teachers, whether that be in a positive or negative way.

I think it might be time to buy a bookshelf!!!