What do you guys think?

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What do you guys think?

Postby Jacques » Nov 28th, '05, 10:34



Stumbled across this link.

Its been on my mind for a while now:

Here it is

http://magic.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsi ... esus.shtml

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Postby Mandrake » Nov 28th, '05, 11:11

Without getting too theological over this, perhaps we should bear in mind that some of the Biblical miracles were allegorical anyway so aren't supposed to have actually happened, for instance the walking on water business has nothing to do with actually taking a stroll across a lake, the Gospels themselves aren't history books and were never intended to be taken as such. The Feedings of the Multitudes have more to do with showing the way resources can and ought to be shared rather than an endless production of food from nowhere. Most other miracles can be replicated by even the average Magician so, IMHO, there's no real point in getting worked up over a TV programme which sets out to be deliberately controversial using two guys who seem intent on doing magic from any angle but straight on! My main gripe is that those guys are clearly well skilled, could do (and have done) some great magic but they always have to be quirky, zany, off the wall, in yer face etc. I know I'm a dinosaur but it really does seem a misuse of talent and TV time. Of course, I could be wrong. :wink:

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Postby Happy Toad » Nov 28th, '05, 11:51

Without getting too theological over this, perhaps we should bear in mind that some of the Biblical miracles were allegorical anyway so aren't supposed to have actually happened


Really Mandrake, where do you get that idea? certainly not from the Bible.

Most other miracles can be replicated by even the average Magician


Wouldn't agree with that either, I gave 4 examples of Biblical miracles on another board and no one came up with anything that would really pass. Though I do agree some of the miracles could be counterfeited such as water into wine.

It is a shame that skilled magicians are having to sink to shock/offense tactics to get an audience. I guess so much of our television has now sunk to this level. One wonders where it will stop, maybe one day we will also have people publicly crucified while others stand around watching and millions tune in.

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Postby Peter Marucci » Nov 28th, '05, 12:41

For years -- decades -- magicians have been turning water into wine, levitating (flying) and other Biblical "miracles".

I'll have to go with Mandrake on this one: Biblical miracles are largely allegories.

Nowhere in the original link does it say that the pair are going to replicate the miracles of Jesus; it just says "Biblical" miracles. If they do miracles from the Old Testament, shouldn't Jewish members be upset, too?

And, besides, Western magicians for scores of years, have been doing things like the Buddah tubes or Buddah papers, that carelessly use symbols of the faith of others and, so, denigrate Buddhist, Hindu, and Muslim faiths.

In a few words: So what? Anyone whose faith is so insecure as to be shaken by a TV show doesn't have much faith to begin with.

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Postby Happy Toad » Nov 28th, '05, 14:44

Peter you certainly got upset about an issue that I can only assume must mean you had very little faith about. Unless of course your logic is flawed.

Anyone can claim the Biblical miracles are meant to be allegories what they can't do is give any support to the position from the Bible. If you want to believe they are allergories that's fine, as long as you don't pretend that the Bible presents them as allergories.

I don't recall anyone levitating as a Biblical miracle unless you mean leaving the ground and being taken right up into the heavens and never being seen again, in which case I'm not aware of this being replicated.

Nowhere in the original link does it say that the pair are going to replicate the miracles of Jesus; it just says "Biblical" miracles. If they do miracles from the Old Testament, shouldn't Jewish members be upset, too?


I don't see why anyone should be upset if they treat it with respect. If however they try to make out Jesus or for the Jews Moses used deception to appear to do miracles then yes I think both Jews and Christians are likely to be duly offended.

Anyone whose faith is so insecure as to be shaken by a TV show doesn't have much faith to begin with.


Don't think anyone has claimed to have had their faith shaken.

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Postby bananafish » Nov 28th, '05, 14:58

Anyone can claim the Biblical miracles are meant to be allegories what they can't do is give any support to the position from the Bible.


If the bible is a written account of what was witnessed at the time, then something else to consider is that we all know how people that relate a magic trick they saw to someone else are prone to describe what they thought they saw and not what actually happened (and thank goodness for that!)

Now I am not suggesting that anyone has to believe that the biblical miracles are all magic tricks or even just allegories (although personally I do accept the possibility of this), but I daresay that anyone seeing a miracle is as likely to exaggerate or at the very least misremember in the same way that anyone seeing a magic trick would. The same goes with re-telling a tory told be someone else.

Each person will build it up just that little bit each time. That's just human nature...

anyway just some thoughts

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Postby Happy Toad » Nov 28th, '05, 15:01

Yup that's a valid point Simon, though I have to say even if Jesus was only a little bit dead on the cross, it was still pretty amazing :lol:

Or after the Red sea was parted and the Jews crossed safely it was really only a handful of the pursuing army that were drowned trying to follow and that's cos the Jews were all much better swimmers :wink:

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Postby Mandrake » Nov 28th, '05, 15:29

Mandrake wrote:Without getting too theological over this
was intentional and the idea was to try and avoid what's happened above. Could we now please take it that we've all had our theological say on the matter and perhaps consider the rights and the wrongs (if there are any) of what Stuart and Barry/Channel 4 appear to be intending to do?

Of course this could be a no win situation because until we've seen the programme, we can only guess and surmise and, once the programme has been shown, it's too late to do anything about it! As mentioned above, this very strained approach to magic always disappoints me personally as I feel the TV time could be devoted in a much better direction. On t'other side of the coin is the fact that Channel 4 have been very prolific with magic related programmes for some years now, thus highlighting the poor attitude of the Beeb and ITV to our favourite art. Perhaps we ought to be grateful for the programmes they've done and take the weird stuff as just part of the price paid for having some televised 'proper' (whatever that is!) magic? One thing is for certain, the things that Channel 4 do certainly provoke discussion so their publicity policy is working just fine!

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Postby SirRawlins » Nov 28th, '05, 15:38

Yep, this is bound to be another Magic show produced by Channel 4 that will amuse the masses and leave us "real" magicians too stand in the background shaking our heads.

Religion is always a difficult hot potato to handle, especialy in todays climate with religion continualy at the forefront of the media.

The only consolation i can draw from this is that if there is indeed a God, then he will have Barry & Stuart burn in hell for it ... which to be honest, is the best place for them ehehe :wink: :lol:

Rob

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Postby Happy Toad » Nov 28th, '05, 15:42

Lol Mandrake, I'm quite happy not to debate the theological side of things, you've made your point I've made mine I just hope your comment about not getting theological didn't mean "I'm going to make a theological point and I don't want anyone to respond.:) Anyhow lets leave it there.

I don't think we can comment too much on the programme until we see it, but I do think the premise needs very careful handling which I doubt it will get. Still you never know, it might be good.

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Postby Mandrake » Nov 28th, '05, 15:51

For those who are still confused ( :wink: ), details are on http://business.scotsman.com/media.cfm?id=2258632005. and more are on the back issue pages of magicweek.co.uk http://www.magicweek.co.uk/thisweek_magic_news.htm but you have to scroll down quite a bit to get at it.

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Postby Happy Toad » Nov 28th, '05, 15:58

Personally I fancy the Derren Brown one, if they are not stooges and if he does persuade them to commit a crime it might raise some interesting questions.

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Postby Mandrake » Nov 28th, '05, 16:23

Legally, of course, it would be a serious offence to incite anyone to genuinely break the law so there's bound to be some caveat about it all - I hope! Following on from the way he convinced some folks in the US to believe he had genuine psychic powers in 'Messiah' earlier this year, I'm eagerly waiting to see what methods and processes Derren uses to convince people to go criminal. I suppose we've all heard about that old US research project where volunteers were intimidated into giving other 'volunteers' electric shocks when they gave incorrect answers in a 'test' sequence, even though it seemed as though the process seemed to be seriously endangering their lives. It makes me wonder just how far some people will go when 'following orders' or, in this case, strong professional suggestions!

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Postby Happy Toad » Nov 28th, '05, 16:27

I won't be impressed if he does the effect using lawyers, since that would be far too easy.

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Postby Mandrake » Nov 28th, '05, 16:44

This may be very simplistic but many years ago a chap on TV was explaining the basics of hypnosis and why people couldn't (according to him) be forced to do things against their will. He showed the example of a woman under hypnosis who was told to throw a brand new, expensive crystal vase on the floor and break it. It was obvious that she didn’t want to do this and there was some visible distress. Having calmed the woman down, the hypnotist then told her again to throw the vase on the floor and break it but added that it was cracked and therefore dangerous so a small child could cut itself on the glass. The woman immediately smashed the vase without a second's hesitation. I think the idea was to show that, given a good enough reason for doing something, natural objections can be overcome and many of us can be controlled or steered into doing things which are out of character.

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