talkmagic.co.uk

Hi there - please move this post to the correct place if this isn't it

I’ve given the forum terms concerning book, DVD and audio sales a little thought. There seem to be several interrelated problems imo and I’m going to start with a simple problem regarding magical 'books' and something of a personal quibble.

There is a tendency amongst magicians who are producing what are often ‘booklets’ or ‘pamphlets’ to over egg the pudding and refer to their various bits of work as full-scale ‘books’. To put this bluntly, a document the size of BA dissertation or even a MA thesis is not a book, and yet booklets that are even shorter than that (so we might only really talking about an article length essay equivalent to things published in your local football fanzine) seem to mysteriously transform into books just because somebody typed them and claimed authorship. Now as an academic I know just how much work can go into a document of that size, as my own MA thesis had over 280 citations and was the product of countless hours spent researching in libraries and sitting in boring lectures over a number of years, but it still wasn’t a book. Consequently there is a problem right from the get-go with magicians claiming to have written ‘books’ when they clearly haven’t, and it is often this error in definition which leads to many of the problems that seem to be of concern.

The second point, then, follows directly from the first in that these alleged ‘books’ are indeed really just booklets and so are printed in exactly the way you might expect. They appear typically as a thin collection of A4 pages which have often been printed out from someone’s PC, with covers that are made from only slightly thicker card either folded around the content, and then secured with a couple of staples, or stuck along the edge with the sort of binding process you pay under £1 for in most university stationers. This means that the ‘book’ could absolutely be photocopied in very little time and on a scale that seems readymade for the process. In fact, almost all of the ‘books’ that I have bought quite fairly and squarely from legitimate magical suppliers have been run-out by exactly that process, so the method of duplicating the material would instantly suggest itself to anybody who was unscrupulous.

Thirdly, and again referring to the issue of ‘books’ vs. booklets and errors in definition, the price of these thin and reproducible publications also becomes an issue. To put this in context by way of yet another comparison to the academic world, all of the academic books I own (which unlike magical booklets often run into hundreds of pages with professionally bound covers and an index to boot) are aimed at a very limited and exclusive readership while being packed with exhaustively researched content. The work-to-product ratio is therefore the same, if not actually far more taxing for the academic author rather than the magical author, as the time spent putting the book together and literally stuffing it full of useable ideas is the entire value of the text. Yet there is not at all the same emphasis upon pricing the item to the skies in academic publishing as there is in that of magic, while strangely and concurrently not only the work-to-product ratio but also the work-to-profit ratio shows a degree of disparity between the two. As one of my professors commented after his book had just been released with zero press interest whatsoever, it had cost him over six years of research, thousands of pounds in terms of obtaining other rare publications and a incalculable amount of heartache and stress. However, the payoff for all of that would be little more than seeing the book sold to a few university libraries, to have it appear on some suggested reading lists for a small number of courses, and ultimately to receive close to nothing back from it in terms of profit. So why did he do it? Well, there were apparently the other twin issues of reputation and a potential linked increase in earning power that might well pay-off for him in the long run, which in that sense seems to equate to the magical fraternity 1-to-1 but imo in a rather less greedy and far more intellectually honest way.

These points considered as a whole, then, what is at least the initial problem as far as I see it? To briefly reassess the terrain, you have ‘books’ that are not books at all being produced very cheaply, which also means they can be reproduced equally cheaply, which are then sold at vastly exaggerated prices. This unavoidably becomes a goldmine for people who want to bootleg this sort of magical output and the final blame for that lies nowhere else but at the door of magicians themselves. While certain magicians do indeed publish real and genuine books--like Derren Brown or in a more Dickensian-sense Corinda-- there are others who produce short essays and then swan around as if they were James Joyce or Peter Ackroyd, laying claim to their ‘book’ with its tremendously inflated price and often equally overestimated content. For example, one of the books that I recently chose NOT to try and sell through this website (as I thought it unfair to foist it upon anybody else) cost me £20, was literally pamphlet-sized when it arrived through the mail from a very well thought of magical supplier, had less than 40 widely type-faced pages and contained the same simple idea repeated several times throughout! Y’know, when you consider that £20 can be charged for something that is marketed as a book while not truly being one, with a single idea running across its pages, then what is the state of magical publishing anyway? It is little more than a joke and a very expensive one for people who are looking for honest ideas.

Of course, the other issue concerning DVD’s or audio have little to with any of this (although copy protection programs when producing DVD’s cost nothing to buy, can be obtained through shareware and take zero skill to run so laziness is perhaps an issue) and are just symptomatic of the age. Certainly you can copy a DVD or audio CD but as we happen to live in the 21st century that comes as little surprise, and I would argue correctly that there can be no reason whatsoever for banning the sale of magical items on that basis due to concerns over reproducibility. If you nip across the internet there are literally thousands of 2nd hand retailers selling CD’s, DVD’s, tapes and books without the slightest concern that somebody may have taken a copy of it before handing it in for sale--and before you jump to the ‘magic is different’ defence I must state that it is not. The secret information (i.e., the content or intellectual property by any other name) of the latest release from an indie band, an author or a film maker is hidden away inside the product in exactly the same sense as the idea for a trick or a magical technique is hidden within the format of its release. There is truly no difference between any of these products once the music, the idea or the story is out and runs the risk of being copied, so if people can trade these items ANYWHERE ELSE without any concern whatsoever then it becomes completely nonsensical and irrational to pretend that there is something special about the content of magic just because of its ‘tricky’ nature. Indeed, following this line of thought all the way to a point of absurdity, you may as well attempt to ban the sale of magic in any form as…oh dear…the cat is always out of the bag when a single byte of information is sold. See, it is actually ‘reproduced’ in the head of the person that buys it so you have an inherent risk via simple conversation--possibly drunken conversation-- or slips of the tongue. Should we then go around and try to ban people’s brains or more especially their memories while also zipping-up their mouths?

To conclude, I have never in all my life been prevented from trying to sell products that I have fairly bought from any retailer to anyone else. Thankfully I’ve noticed that other respected magical forums around the internet do not have the same policy, and I am attempting to sell 2nd hand DVD, audio and printed items there at more than reasonable prices. This is of course not to say that I do not value this forum, as in every other respect I think it is exceptional, but rather that in terms of this one single point I consider it to be heavy handed, ill considered and just plain wrong. I cannot put that in any other terms and when coupled to the other points noted above then I’m hard pressed to imagine what a counterpoint to this would look like.

Best wishes,

Nathan Howard (aka Jonathan Howard Sillis when not trying to do magic)

I couldn't agree more, but as someone that spent an age trying to argue this point I can tell you that no amount of sound logic will win the day on this particular issue. I never could understand why, but I'm afraid it's just one of those things that members of this board have to accept.

Happy Toad wrote:I couldn't agree more, but as someone that spent an age trying to argue this point I can tell you that no amount of sound logic will win the day on this particular issue. I never could understand why, but I'm afraid it's just one of those things that members of this board have to accept.

Indeed you have, and we consider our standpoint to be equally as logical.

The fact is, this forum is here as a place to discuss magic and the trade section was added as a little bit extra. If there ever was any possibility that we would consider changing the policy as a result of studied discussion that was eradicated by the attitudes displayed by ex-members in their attacks on the stance of the forum and it's moderators. To avoid any such nastiness occuring again, I'm afraid that this topic is off limits in the public area.

If you have read the previous discussions, most of which should be accessible via the search function you will see why this is, and will be able to read our reasons why. If you should still feel the need to discuss this amicably, then by all means do so via the private mesaging system.

This is the last input I will have into this thread and I suspect that the other moderators will do the same.

Very good, valid and interesting points.

I will say that the rule now seems almost archaic—as it stems back to a time when this forum was owned and run by a magic retailer.

During this time, it seemed unethical for the retailer to be running a forum where books and DVDs/Videos were traded or sold.

Mainly because of the copyright implication: An effect based upon intellectual media—i.e. it can be learned, remembered, and performed—can then be traded on by the original owner.

However, I feel that the original feeling back in 'those days' when the forum was run by a retailer, was more one of commercial concern.

However—the forum is now rather more of a 'free house' in terms of ownership. It is sponsored by various retailers, and therefore could be more open-market.

Perhaps we could discuss this with the current owner, who now has no ties with magic retail.

One thing which this forum will never condone is the trading of pirated materials. Whilst at some point in time I am sure even the most angelic amongst us have actually given or received a 'copy' of magic material, actually selling copies for one's own financial gain is simply intollerable.

Perhaps there is mileage in bringing this point up for review, and as such, I will contact the rest of the moderation/admin/ownership team for advice.

Indeed you have, and we consider our standpoint to be equally as logical.

Sorry Nick if it appeared I was stating your position was illogical, as I agree it was entirely logical with the situation as it was back in the old days. As things stand now however you know my opinion.
It would be nice if in light of the current situation the position was reviewed, however if it isn't then as I've said in the past I'm happy to accept the decision of the Mods/Lawrence, I for one want know more bad feeling over such a minor issue.

I wonder if it would be possible to do a - what's it called, third-party? - system. That is, if you want to trade something instead of having to worry about piracy and copied DVDs and so on you could send it to a volunteer on this forum (along with a few pounds to cover costs) and they could organize resending it when the trade goes through. Just an idea.

Kati

For what it's worth (not very much) this is my opinion. If I want to sell a magic book/video/DVD, I would much prefer to sell it to people who I know are well schooled in magic, like the posters on this forum, rather than unknown ebayers.
I don't see a problem with selling this material, unless somebody joins the forum and their only intention is to sell their wares, and make a quick buck.
I think the solution to this would possibly be to have a restriction on the starting of new threads in the trading forum. It's just a thought.