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LOL, ok thanks guys. Basically the reason i wanted to know is because i made up this sleight (well so i thought) So i wanted to be sure i made it up, and that might explain why i do it a differant way than the original, i still havent seen the vid, but im at a diff pc now and it has quicktime but it still dont work. Maybe its downloading really slow, is there much of a differance in the way i do it and they way the other method is done?

arkos wrote:LOL, ok thanks guys. Basically the reason i wanted to know is because i made up this sleight (well so i thought) So i wanted to be sure i made it up, and that might explain why i do it a differant way than the original, i still havent seen the vid, but im at a diff pc now and it has quicktime but it still dont work. Maybe its downloading really slow, is there much of a differance in the way i do it and they way the other method is done?

Arkos, no worries. Okay so you didn't make up a new sleight, this one has been around for quite a while; but it at least your trying to express yourself which is a good thing.

The difference between your handling and the Push-in Change is that the latter is done at the front of the deck. If you have a copy of Expert Card Technique it will give you the appropriate cover for the move. I suspect you are moving the action around the back to provide cover, but there isn't any need. It also looks a little suspect from the specs point of view, which of course it is.

The video I have is around the same principle. Imagine inserting the card around the front and then have it visually change while still trapped in the deck. Now I'm not sure what this sleight is called. I saw it on an ellusionist demo and worked out a method. Still haven't tracked down the reference for it, and I lay no claim to it. Just thought it might be of interest.

I'll try re-recording the video, but unfortunately you'll still need the latest quicktime. We'll give it a go though.

EDIT: okay here is a quick recording of what I've been talking about in mp4 format (still quicktime). Not my best work but it is silly-o-clock in the morning. Hopefully you'll get the idea.

Hey i found the author of 'the push-in change' is Arthur Buckley. Is that the one you did on the vid (worked this time) ? It is a very visual effect, but it seems quite differant from the way i do mine, a few of the moves might be the same but i didnt put myt method together to be a 'change' so to speak, like i could use it in the 'Here then there' trick, for example instead of doing it the normal way to force another card onto them without them knowing via DL and replacing it onto the top, i could do it the way i perform the push-in move accept without showing them the card right away, Hope that makes sense. So while i am clearly not the creator of the actual push in move itself, would it be fair to say my own rendition of it would be original?

Btw i honestly have never heard of the push-in move until you mentioned it, nor have alot of other people. The way you yourself perform it is visually stunning, but the way i do it could be used in a differant way. Example: Here then there and a range of other tricks.

arkos wrote:Hey i found the author of 'the push-in change' is Arthur Buckley.

mmm, no it isn't. As far as I know and as I stated previously it was first described in print in 1897 by A. Roterberg. Buckley would have been 7 at the time. If you have predated material please state your source.

arkos wrote:Is that the one you did on the vid (worked this time) ?

Ah, pleased it worked for you. In answer to your question ....
Yes and no. Up to the point I angle jog the card. I could complete here and just pull out and show the change as you do. Although to be fair not with the sequence I show in the video, but it could easily be a 10d to a 10h.

arkos wrote:So while i am clearly not the creator of the actual push in move itself, would it be fair to say my own rendition of it would be original?

I haven't found a reference for your variation, but that is in no way conclusive. This will almost certainly have been written up somewhere before. As I stated previously I doubt it would be considered an improvement over the original anyway.

arkos wrote:Btw i honestly have never heard of the push-in move until you mentioned it, nor have alot of other people.

Its in Expert Card Technique. This is hardly what I'd consider an obscure text. Don't ask people who learn from DVD, they simply won't know the answer. Video is a great support to the learning process, but you rarely get any references or historical background. I am a strong believer that video should augment not replace learning from books. Its also cheaper.

DVD (20) effects @ £20 = £1 per effect
Hardback Classic 100 @ £25 = 25p per effect

arkos wrote:The way you yourself perform it is visually stunning, but the way i do it could be used in a differant way. Example: Here then there and a range of other tricks.

I put the video together to simply show you a different way of performing the move that may be of interest to you. If I had a reference I would have given you that. Unfortunately I don't.

I don't want to burst your bubble, but if you want to start creating effects you need to get a good grounding in magic history (I'm still working on it). Otherwise you will be continually reinventing the wheel. If you then publish, you'll be accused of ripping off others work. Feel free to disagree, lots of magicians do and some of them are very well known. They are busy selling us all DVDs for £20 that contain effects that are in the classic texts available for less £10.

I just googled it, http://www.emagictricks.co.uk/Daryl_7_C ... s_PAL.html 5th paragraph, and i agree with most of what you say, but im not trying to re invent the method used by whoever it is that made it, nor am i saying its an improvment, im simply saying it could be an alternate method used too force a differant card than the spectator he/she thinks is being handed to them, as i mentioned in the 'here then there' trick, do you know that trick? I have had quite alot of postive feedback on another magic forum im apart of, and in no way am i trying to 'publish' this move, but if i ever used it as part of a trick i make up in the future i would give credit to the originator, but the way you have explained the move to me and from the vid u made it seems more of a card change reveal, which isnt exactly what im doing.

And yeah i need to get a better understanding of the history of card magic, but i have only been doing magic all together for maybe 3 months, and card magic for maybe 1/2 that time, so to soak up every single trick, technique, and who made it up and when etc, is probably a bit much for me.

However you make a good point about reinventing the wheel, thats why i thought i would ask if anyone knows the 'same' method i use, but so far noone has been able to find the exact same rendition i use. Not to say it doesnt exsist but i can only be hopeful So far so good thoe, you seem to know your history quite well, so if you havent seen the same way i do it, could be a start.

arkos wrote:I just googled it, http://www.emagictricks.co.uk/Daryl_7_C ... s_PAL.html 5th paragraph

Notice that "The Push In Change" is not credited to Arthur Buckley. Buckley has another variation of the sleight which is called "The Slide" and it's that move that Daryl gives him the credit for. "The Push In Change" can be found in the both Daryl's video nr7 and Expert Card Technique p.87 (improved variation), but no magician is credited in neither sources. Your colour change looks alot like a variation of the "The Push In Change", but it's not the same change that is described in the sources mentioned above as your right forefinger does nothing (I suppose your left thumb acts that role). I don't think anyone will get upset if you call that your variation of "The Push In Change", at least it sounds fair to me.

What comes to the colour change that pdjamez is performing I didn't really see what was happening even if he says it's a push in change . Maybe I should take a closer look. Nicely done!

By the way,Arkos are you left handed?

arkos wrote:I just googled it, http://www.emagictricks.co.uk/Daryl_7_C ... s_PAL.html 5th paragraph

The buckley reference doesn't refer to the change under discussion.

arkos wrote:... but im not trying to re invent the method used by whoever it is that made it, nor am i saying its an improvment ..

No, I know you weren't saying that. I was.

arkos wrote: 'here then there' trick, do you know that trick? I have had quite alot of postive feedback on another magic forum im apart of

Correct me if I'm wrong but, both ellusionist at a guess. Brad's shocking version of the amazing "Here then There" is a plot for which I know a number of approaches. The use of a dup in this case is a little weak (obvious?) IMHO.

arkos wrote:from the vid u made it seems more of a card change reveal, which isnt exactly what im doing.

Yes I know, again I was simply showing you an alternative handling. Take your own handling and do it at the front. Thats the the push-in change.

arkos wrote: you seem to know your history quite well, so if you havent seen the same way i do it, could be a start.

Arkos, I know next to nothing about card history, so don't depend on it. Saying that, IMHO its the push in change which ever side you apply it.

Sorry arkos, some of the statements in my previous post were fairly general and weren't directed at you specifically. The application of original thought to presentations is to be encouraged, and I applaud your efforts.

Your original question regarded the originality of this sleight. Now thats out of the way, why don't you post a video of the application of this sleight to the effect you've mentioned.

pdjamez wrote:Your original question regarded the originality of this sleight. Now thats out of the way, why don't you post a video of the application of this sleight to the effect you've mentioned.

Well if you have seen the 'here then there' video which is evident, you would realise the application of the sleight, i would make a video but i dont see the point. I have already explained how the way 'i do it' can be used several times, once again, you could 'unkowingly' force a card to the spectator 'whic they think is another card, for example show them you sticking the 7 of hearts into the middle of the deck,when really you have a dl, and you have pushed the 7 of hearts into the middle, you give them what they 'think' is the 7 of hearts but rerally its some other card, lets say the ace of spades, you get them to hold the card 'ace of spades' which they think is the 7 of hearts, caged in there hand. Meanwhile you have a dupe of the 7 of hearts at the top of the deck. I know thats not the exact way the 'here then there trick' goes, but hopefully you get my point.

So while we have established the push-in move wasnt orginated by myself there is no evidence to say the version of the push in move i use was not originated by me. And thats basically all i need to know, thanks for the help!