talkmagic.co.uk

Good thread gentlemen!!! Bravo!

I would agree an illusion is by definition a deception. If we create an illusion, we are surely decieving the senses or mind of the onlooker.

If you see a fellow magician perform and his illusion works it's wonders upon you, do you then not sometimes wish to break it, so that you too can learn this miracle? How do you do this, you go back and watch it again, until you find the move/gimmick that makes it possible, the thing that lies to our senses/mind and turns the thing into an illusion. The thing that decieved us so cleverly in the first place. The deception or trick.

Seige wrote:The bottom line I am trying to get through is that I believe it's wrong to lull the speccy into the sense that you're about to do the impossible. It's far STRONGER and more ENTERTAINING if the impossible literally just happens, with no explanation.

Spot on, old man...

My perception is my reality. As a magician I play with/manipulate people's perception - and in so change their reality. While a lot of what I do uses illusion - I want the audience to be left wondering whether what they just saw was real or not. On my business card I say that what I do is "somewhere between illusion and reality - it's all in the mind".

Seige - what you're saying is true, but I like to look at what I do a bit differently. I like to see optical illusion, linguistics, sleight of hand, suggestion and all of that as the tools that I use to create magic. My definition of magic is an experience - something that happens in the spectators mind, which is often more than I intend. I see myself as the mediator of this experience.

Magic is a powerful word: "Disney magical kingdom","Movie Magic","Magic and Legend", Magic and Myth","Magic and fairytales","Wizards","Magic and Mystery", "The magic of old" etc.
It's a word that seems to have access to our imagination (or at least to mine). It is an experience of mystery, wonder and invokes that part of us that wants to believe that there's more to life than what meets the eye.
I think that a lot of what we do does the word injustice.


I think I've mentioned this in a thread before - but I performed a spoon bend for a physics professor once. His words are "I know that this is impossible - but I'm seeing this with my own eyes. I feel like a child again!". This is what I'm after..

I would agree with most of what is written in this thread, especially by Taneous but one thing that seems to be missing so far is the 'magic of the moment'.

What I mean by this is that sometimes an opportunity presents itself where, if spotted and you're quick witted you can make the magic even stronger. As an example,

I was performing some tricks for friends last night over dinner, about 12 in total and I performed Twisted Sisters. This always gets a good reaction and one of the specs who selected the queen of diamons said, when it was revealed that she couldn't believe it as she had changed her mind at the very last moment from the queen of hearts.

Seizing the opportunity I simply said "I know". This seemed to transform the routine into something far more powerful in her mind as for the whole night she couldn't understand how I knew that she had changed her mind.

Some laughed at her belief that I had read her mond, others were unsure but for her, it made the night and nothing else that I performed came close to having the same effect. To her this was magic yet it was nothing more than a quick reaction to a comment.

I like that and I think it's very important. You can actually build a lot of those oppurtunities into your 'show' - for instance I used to do a routine where I essentially forced a card that fell on the spec's birthday in a diary that was on the table the whole time. Before I forced the card I found out their birthday and got them to name any card. The number of times that they named the card that fell on their birthday is quite freaky - and it makes for a genuine miracle. I had a reason why they must name a card - but I only used that if I needed.

Banachek's Psychological subtelties deals with this a lot with the whole concept of a non-event. Kenton's Mind Reading takes this further where you take risks in reading someone, with the intention of using an 'out'. Very good stuff.

I find that the more I take calculated risks and the more I make room for 'coincidences' in my performance, the more they happen - and when I'm wrong it often makes it more real..

Taneous, Seige, Dat8962 have all hit on the essence of our craft.

I love the Twisted Sisters story, which reminds me of another good example:

I was giving a lecture on the rise of the modern state in Europe (sorry fellas it's my day job), and I said that the modern state formed around the need for taxes and armies, and part of the process involved giving people surnames, so that they could be registered and taxed.

As an example, I pointed to a student I did not know and said,

'suppose your name is "Miller"',

and he said,

'But it is!!!',

and I said,

'I knew that!'. And then carried on with the lecture. It is now a staple in my course lectures. And I attempt it every time I deliver it to a new audience. Derren Brown says a lot about getting 'hits' in this way. If you hit, brilliant, if not, move on, no harm done.

These types of moments present themselves so many times. I love looking out for them and building on them. This is why I was so fascinated with the cold reading threads, since the various books that are being discussed give you tips on how to seize these moments and make them your own. Cold readers keep trying to find hits and then use their craft to wind their way through the details of someone's life.

The whole experience can be enhanced if we look out for these moments and use them to our best advantage.

If you hit, brilliant, if not, move on, no harm done

EXACTLY the point

OK, I think its time I put in my 2 pennys worth.

Magic is an illusion, BUT its achieved by cheating, deception and sometimes lying.

However, I don't agree with the comment that we are one step above the actions of a criminal. Yes, criminals cheat, deceive and lie. But they do so to achieve a material gain.

We perform those things to ENTERTAIN, and it was a number of posts before Flash mentioned that word. Yes, I suppose you can say that we do gain, we get the feel good factor from seeing people entertained and enjoying what we do.

But we still trick them, we cheat them, we deceive them and we lie to them. So what, done properly, they love it

dat8962, DrTodd, Taneous, seige and archimage all have good points about the effect of magic and what magic is suppose to be like. A fun experience. But I thought this thread was a discussion about whether magic was an art of deception or illusion.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

Ooops. My bad:

archimage wrote:Agree, disagree, or provide another misconception. Discuss.

Magic is the art of the creation of mystery. Mystery does not equate with miracle. A mystery is something that baffles understanding and cannot be explained whereas a miracle is a marvelous event manifesting a supernational act.

All magic starts at point A, where everything is normal, and arrives at point B, where something impossible has taken place. Somewhere in between, the magician has taken a detour which the audience is unaware of. The moment the audence learns of this detour, the jig is up. The magician is exposed and there is no mystery.

Here is where I get to the meat of this. There has been a lot of discussion as to magic being the art of deception or illusion. I say to you, that if you approach an audience with the attitude that you will "trick" or decieve your audience, it will be that much harder to successfully complete and they will be that much more suspicious of you. Let me explain. If a magician feels as though he is deceiving his audience and is afraid of being caught, he projects it. This is a fact. I have spent a good portion of my life as an interrogator. It is very difficult to lie or attempt to decieve without projecting it. Of course rehersal will eliminate much of the obvious, but it is there on a more subtle level. Have you ever had a friend try to tell you a story and deep down you knew he was exaggerating or simply lying, but had no facts to back up your assuption? You remained suspicious of his story whether you told him or not and you probably was not impressed by the story because you just felt it wasn't true.

However, if the magician has his aim set to creating an artistic event of true wonder and mystery, something good and desirable, he simply will not have those feelings nor project them to the audience/spectator and thus not be caught easily. In his mind and heart, he is doing something honorable and has nothing to hide i.e, creating a work of art, creating mystery. Creating a connection between the audience and the magician on another level of childish wonder.

Archimage

Archimage

The magician doesn't have to act deceptive. Only do deceptive things naturally as though it wasn't deceptive.

But you are right. If the magician is too nervous about being caught and such, then he'll get caught. A good magician is able to keep his cool under any circumstance. Even if he is to make a mistake, he is able to fix it with another trick, making the whole thing as though it was on purpose. Thus, good deception skills.

I'm not saying magicians are deceptive people or whatever. Just deception is a technique which they utilise to create this illusion and mystery to provide his audience a joyful experience.

Magic is a deception created from an illusion while bringing us a great experience. The magician is only the person who uses it.

To me, deception and illusion are both different but both linked.

You use deception to create an illusion. People come to you as a magician knowing that this is exactly what you do and the better you do it, the more they enjoy it.

I think that the more confident you are, the more likely you will be to deceive your audience. Confidence plays a big part in our art.

One point that continues to be raised in this and other threads is the link between magicians and criminals. There is no link!

Whilst there is deception on both parts, as has already been pointed out there are different gains. The magician works lawfully - the criminal doesn't. It's all about 'intent' and that's the difference.

ok, ok. My intention was not to link the art of magic to that of a common criminal. I was taking the approach of the attitude in which we deal with the spectator.

Ask anyone. Do they like to be decieved? Do they enjoy being lied to? I am saying the magician should not be doing either. The magician should be creating a mystery. Using that attitude, we are not "decieving" which I think has given magicians a bad name. This is why I think that sometimes people are wary of magicians. They do not like being decived. They do not like being made a fool. I'm saying if you create a connection using techniques to create mystery that the impossible is somehow possible, you end up having a magic moment. Again this is not a broad judgement over any magican's approach, but a point of view.

Do not misunderstand me. My intent is to draw out some interesting discussion and examine magic from different points of view. I think we've done that, and I hope it continues. I just don't want people to think I am calling magicians criminals or putting any negative connetation to anyone offering their points of view. My goal is not to necessarily change your minds, but to give pause and offer some fresh ideas to consider.

Archimage

My intention was not to link the art of magic to that of a common criminal.

That's OK Archimage. You're not the first to do so and I don't think that you'll be the last (take that as a prediction if you wish )

Ask anyone. Do they like to be decieved? Do they enjoy being lied to?

Of course the answer is generally NO but then you have to look at this in context as people when you say that you will do this as a magician, and this is exactly what we do, then the answer is generally a 'YES' as it often then becomes a competition to see if they can catch you out.

I think that most people have taken this as you intended it to be taken.

archimage - I think you touched on something really important regarding magician's guilt. I found that for me, defining magic as something other than the method I'm supposed to be using has helped tremendously. For many - a magician claims to use magic to accomplish something, but he isn't - he is using trickery - therefore it's fake - and con matter how one tries to cover that up it will come across that way.
I found that by defining 'magic' as the experience - it is then more like I'm using a variety of methods - be it illusion etc. - to create magic.

Film makers use a variety of methods to create a film - the method is irrelevant and done well, I ignore them as I immerse myself in the film. It's the same with magic - the real magic is the experience of mystery - touching a realm where anything could be possible. Our job is to take them there.

I actually don't see this as being much different from the ancient priests/shamans etc. using ritual and a number of other methods to connect the people with the realm of the gods.... but that's a whole other discussion

To me, everyone is generally right here.

Magic is a mysterious experience. To achieve this mysteriousness, the magician creates illusions. For the illusion to happen and for the people to believe that it happened, the magician needs to decieve the people. That's why I believe magic is an art of deception where everything else is the result we want.

But you're right archimage, some people are wary of magicians because they know the magician is going to do something tricky. Like my cousins. They just want to caught me off. Even simple key card. So I kept changing the keycard so they couldn't figure out what it was that I used. They're the type of people who want to know how it's done, so am I, but I just watch and enjoy and hopefully learn it someday. They'll just ruin your whole routine.

By the way archimage, you were the one who brought up that magic was only a step up from criminality. Not saying that you said magic was criminal. But the idea of it was brought up from it. Thus the discussion that it's not possible.

And on what taneous said, I don't think it becomes a competition to who can caught you. It's more a satisfaction that they arn't tricked by your tricks. Thus by caughting you out, they feel relieved. Even when you pull a stunner on them which they can't figure out, they'll still enjoy, depending on how well you presented it, but they'll still just wait till next time to catch you out. Always until they do caught you out and feel relieved. That's what I think it is.

archimage wrote:Osterlind follows this line of logic as well, but he says that if this were true, then the art of magic is only one step above the actions of a criminal with the only difference being no thievery or harm was done to the spectator.