talkmagic.co.uk

Without screaming here, I'd just like to input an honest opinion of mine. I have lost a loved one to hanging (I discovered her body) and belong to a wonderful group of suicide survivors.

To publically display a public hanging can have so many negative effects.

First, to anyone in the world who has had to live through this ordeal, just seeing this on CBS could bring about horrible flashbacks and a renewed pain.

Second, how many people remember the popular video by B. Spears where she overdosed on pills then drowned in her bath? There was a public outrage and she was forced to alter the video and make public statements, etc. (after all to have a VERY popular icon to younger audiences display that gulping down a ton of pills just because she had an argument with her boyfriend was incredibly foolish and such a bad image to portray IMO)

I have the same concern now, too. How many (especially younger viewers) *MAY* believe that hanging is survivable or think its *COOL* to try it?

I am disgusted and sickened and won't be watching at all. But its not me that I"m so worried about.....its the impression it could give. Never, I mean NEVER should hanging be viewed as a 'trick' IMO.

There are so many more ways to get a nice magic show across on CBS, etc.

Heck, I enjoy magic!

I don't want to be attacked, seriously, I don't. So, please take this as an OPINION only and don't jump on me about illusions or magic, etc.

I know and understand its trickery, but how many might not get it?

If this website has as many members as I think it has then certainly there are a few here who have already been (unfortunately) exposed to suicide in their lives and know how ugly it all is.

I just wanted to vent a bit and put out my opinion.

I have already visited his website and left comments, emailed him personally, left opinions on various indepented review websites, plus written CBS too.

I just can't believe he's going to show this.

I know, I know......magicians show bodies being cut in half and also stick swords inside people and even appear to nearly drown. I know all of this, so please don't point that out to me. Its just that NONE of those techniques are usually used as a primary means to commit suicide, where as hanging is one of the BIGGEST (right behind gun shots).

I belong to a large suicide support group and all of our members are really trying to get CBS or SOMEONE to listen and attempt to get him to change up this one particular aspect of his show on May 12th.

Not being an optimist, I seriously doubt it will make one bit of difference, but that won't stop me from at least trying.

Thank you for reading this post, I sincerely appreciate it.

Lisa

No attack from me. I happen to agree with you. In fact the thoughts you voice crossed my mind although I will admit only fleetingly.

Thank you for making me think about this a little more.

you have my vote.

This is purely a personal opinion but moves to ban things invariably end up promoting them and increasing the interest far more which I'm sure isn’t what you want. As the majority of TM members are outside the US, we won't be seeing this show unless it's shown on cable or satellite TV. Keith Barry's previous shows have been aired that way but not so far on mainstream TV. Just as a point of balance, earlier this year we had a UK escapologist attempting various routines on live TV including a hanging one which apparently didn’t work and the guy was left hanging for several seconds before he was released - there were no copycat attempts reported as a result of this programme. Derren Brown's Russian Roulette programme attracted criticism, although not as much criticism as his fake Séance, but again no copycat attempts. A lot of magical and escapology effects can be deemed offensive under certain circumstances but it's an individual choice about watching them and, in common with any show where there may be danger in copying, there will no doubt be a clear warning at the start of the transmission. I can feel the pain in your remarks but I fear you may be aiming at the wrong target here. We have no power to lobby US TV companies one way or another, sorry.

Please don't react badly to my reply. I just want you to think about it for the moment.

I'm really sorry for your loss, Lisa. You know, if I'd lost a loved one to a hanging, the last thing I'd be doing is upsetting myself by watching a hanging stunt. I have, in fact, lost three. One over a girl, the second because it was just "time". The third threw himself off a road bridge on a bypass for reasons that seem to be spontaneous. It really upset me when the CD he recommended turned up after the event. A friend's son recently attempted a hanging after a history of leaving notes. I've also been called by a friend threatening drunken suicide by overdose and clinking the bottles of pills and vodka together down the phone. She told me later that I'd saved her life. Even so, there's a certain sense of impotence about the successful ones that lingers. It's partly why I've gone out of the way to learn how to get people to talk in ways and about things they simply can't talk to other people about. We had a hanging escapology stunt over here a few months ago. But my friends were already dead. Banning the show wouldn't have brought them back. Perhaps the answer is to have beter facilities for unhappy people who think it might be time to end it all so that they can find the strength to see if things get better. If you're alive, you always have at least one alternative right up until the last moment; it's just sometimes very difficult to see them. A nicer society would be a start, but as Mandrake says, banning things does nothing. People still know they're possible, you see. The greater fear is that they'll make a mess of things and die in agony, or worse, be left in a terrible mess.

I thank all of you for your replies. I didn't expect to have any - let alone some very kind ones. I am also not offended by hearing differing opinions either.

My loss was 5 years ago and my child was only 13 years old. She made a spontaneous and irreversable mistake without any possibility of realizing the permanence of her actions. The youngness of her age is not uncommon in any way and that is why I am sort of on a mission to keep teen idols from performing ridiculous and deadly stunts off mainstream TV. Anyways....

I realize this gentleman is from another country and things are probably a bit different on the tele than over here. Although that is really tongue in cheek because there is a bunch of negatives on our sets over here too.

I do know that having a better society or else a better avenue for people to talk is the preferred method to prevent suicides. How I wish for so many of us that that could be accomplished in a finger snap. Unfortunately, in children (teens)....many times the actions are spontaneous and not very well thought out. No warning can be given or anything. In those cases, where 'hiding' problems from mom and dad is there main concern, then HOW can we be completely sure we are providing all we can for them? In the case of adults its usually different whereby you can see a history of either drug abuse, mental disorders, prior attempts, bad relationships, etc etc etc. The adult will usually KNOW he is ending everything but usually a young teen will NOT know the permanence of it all.

I am mostly disturbed by the Jessica Simpson tie in for the programming. She, over here, is an absolute teen idol. An icon of sorts to millions of younger viewers. I am not sure, but lord I HOPE its not her that the fake hanging will be done on. If it is then there could be no worse scenerio for young ones.

I also know about the warnings - but people flip the tele constantly and I, for one, could not imagine stopping and subsequently causing my now 15 and 12 year old sons to SEE a hanging and try to imagine what that may do to them. Just this week my older son had to get assistance with a writing assignment since he was required to read a book called 'Hangman'. After 5 years the pain is just that raw. Those boys will never be all the way okay (but do just terrific most of the time despite the loss of sis).

Suicide methods are not something to create a stunt over IMO.

I just wanted to say that IF he uses a popular teen idol to create an illusion of hanging and 'surviving' then how many teens will see this?

Suicide is one of the leading cause of death in teens. So why do this? We also know that hanging oneself can and will cause death, but do all of the children know this and what if even ONE child tries it at home?

I just don't understand why he can't use some unknown to do this trick and NOT a teen idol. Someone above said there was a russian roullette program on TV once and it drew criticism? I bet the person pulling the trigger wasn't a very famous and popular teen idol but instead a magician or something, right?

Oh, and I know getting the show banned won't happen. That sincerely wasn't my intention. All of the items I've written have been to plead for him to change up that one trick or (in the LEAST) remove the teen idol from the line up for hanging.

When B. Spears video got so much attention, it went 'belly-up' and MTV pulled it until it was altered plus she issued statements. Whether or not that constitutes bringing extra attention to things, well, all I know is that the original 'overdose after an argument and drowning' scene was GONE. That was and is a horrible thing to show the kids who follow her videos.

Well, I'll be done now. I thank all of you once again for reading this.

For me, personally, I will not stop writing others. I won't bog down your site because I've really already said everything there is to say. No need to get repetitive.

I will ask, do you know of any other sites you may suggest where I could post? Thanks!

Have a great day.

There are a number of magic sites. I am banned from most of them. However you could try www.themagiccafe.com or www.geniimagazine.com

These would be high profile sites Some of the members may not be as understanding as the ones here and you could come across some rude replies. On the other hand they could be nice to you.

However you are entitled to put forward your point of view so put on your suit of armour and go forth. I wish you luck.

As an afterthought to this matter it is interesting to note that the age old children's entertainment Punch and Judy used to have a hanging scene. I remember it well when I was a kid. I have to admit that I found it very funny at the time. Mr Punch kept putting his head in the noose the wrong way and the hangman had to show him how to do it. In the end Mr Punch hanged the hangman.

Virtually every children's entertainer has now abandoned the hangman scene and quite right too. It was a vestige of the days when capital punishment was legal in Britain and I saw it during this period in history.

If every kids entertainer has abandoned an age old scene like this then I think Keith Barry probably should too. Of course I am sure he isn't going to since all the planning has been done. However even though the great Maurice Fogel and others have done the "cheating the gallows" trick I have always had slight misgivings about it for the reasons that Lisa mentioned. There is also a tone to it which I don't feel comfortable with.

Of course a line has to be drawn somewhere with political correctness. Punch and Judy has been criticised because when you think about it Mr Punch is a baby murderer and serial killer. Punch and Judy is very violent entertainment yet I don't think it should be banned. The kids know that it is not real life and their security is not threatened. And it also points out the difference between good and evil. And besides kids are bloodthirsty creatures and love the entertainment!

But hanging just about goes over that line I think. If I were on TV I don't think I would do it. I think there is a lesson to be derived from Punch and Judy. The hanging scene though very funny has been discarded. I tend to think it should be discarded from TV also.

Derren Brown, the guy who did the Russian Roulette routine, is a magician and psychological illusionist but makes no secret that he achieves all his effects through trickery of one kind or another and he actually pulled the trigger on himself. The hanging stunt was an automatic thing where the guy had to escape or be hung and he took too long picking the handcuffs so was, to a large extent, self inflicted.

If Keith is planning on hanging someone else then that's going a bit too far. All previous effects and stunts on his shows have endangered him only with the exception of when he drove blindfolded with a TV celebrity in the passenger seat. CBS are either very confident that the show won’t offend or they've lost the plot and misjudged public feelings. If they can't offer reassurances that the effect is not going to be objectionable then perhaps a few e-mails to the firms who advertise on CBS to let them know about this might get the point home and produce some sort of satisfactory conclusion?

mark lewis wrote:But hanging just about goes over that line I think. If I were on TV I don't think I would do it. I think there is a lesson to be derived from Punch and Judy. The hanging scene though very funny has been discarded. I tend to think it should be discarded from TV also.

Hear, hear.

Something of a weirdness though, that in the 'olden' days, hanging WAS a public spectacle which did indeed draw the crowds.

I personally, however, have absolutely no desire to watch someone perform this, although I fear that there's possibly a LOT more than a minority would love to see this.

I can't see what the desired result would be, except shock. But as any of you who've visited countries such as Saudi Arabia know, executions, dismemberment and the likes are commonplace, without any shock value at all.

Perhaps it's human nature to flaunt with death, as death is a curious aspect of life itself.

However, the hideous prospect of someone genuinely tempting fate this way is quite barbaric, considering it's intent is to entertain.

Just an opinion.

i live near a place called Gallows Corner...

it is barbaric, and i think thats why some people want to see it...

the danger in banning anything is that usually, it just makes it more "newsworthy" than it deserves...sometimes adding a gloss to something grimey...

People that have lost someone through gun-crime im sure would not appreciate seeing something similar on tv...

Ok, let's play Devil's Advocate (a role I'm known for)...

The Hangman's Illusion has been presented in countless variations for well over a century in grand illusion programs including (most recently) the Siegfred & Roy show and that of Lance Burton. We also have the grand execution bits such as the Will Rock Guillotine and countless "escapes" in which life & death are a part.

If we were to strike out all the great illusions that are a prime part of magic-lore simply because it "may" strike someone the wrong way and they go off half-cocked, we wouldn't have much to draw from in way of grand illusion; no more guillotine or arm choppers or penetrations let alone the classic vivisections like the sawing, zig zag, and missing torso. There would be no more call for the famed Cremation, Hindu Basket, or even a properly presented Hindu Rope routine.

The close-up/parlor & bizarrist would have to stop doing the famed Harry Anderson Needle trick and the linking of razor blades and threading of needles within one's mouth and in that a small child might choke to death on a sponge ball, we're screwed there as well... hell, even playing cards are dangerous, people get cut and even blinded by them with all too frequent a turn, given the antics of the scalling pro.

While we're at it, that is listing the things in magic that "may" cause someone harm or psychological angst, we'll have to ban the loud music and flash-bangs of pyro accents and laser lights. And that damned shocking touch thing most certainly needs to go bye-bye in that some idiot might do it randomly on a person wearing a pacemaker.

I would hope that by this point in your reading you are getting the picture as to how rediculous such antics would be. There's always going to be someone crying over what we do and imposing upon it a significance that does not apply to the greater whole.

Sure, Im' sounding rather cruel and uncaring but I too have had dear ones die as the result of hanging, shootings and other modes of both, murder and suicide. I survived one of the worse hotel fires in this country's history and yet, I still do the Cremation on those special occassions along with other bits of the macabre that are of my specialty. I offer ample warning to folks but it only seems to lure them in vs. casting them aside.

Harry Blackstone told me once that he'd never do the Impalment in that it was such a brutal illusion... this coming from a man that was known as the successor to the Buzz Saw, one of the most brutal and "perfect" mutilations ever concieved.

So where is the line drawn?

I happen to appreciate Gene Poincs idea of "Lizzie's Bunnies" (a bizarred mode of doing Hippity Hop Rabbits) but I don't think many mothers would appreciate it if I brought them to little Johnny's next birthday party.

Do not think me heartless for presenting this realistic perspective to the issue at hand. It's just like dealingn with Televangelists... you can always change the channel and not watch it if you don't agree with it or think you cannot handle it but why should I, as a performer, be limited in what is contained in my programs simply because it "may" have an adverse reaction or serve as a trigger to another?

Yes, I do have responsibilities when it comes to such a thing. That responsibility is to advise folks ahead of time that there may be things in what I do that could be disturbing. But as I said, for every one person this keeps away from patronizing me, it gives me at least 3 others paying the price and walking through the door.

We mourn the loss of thsoe in our lives for very selfish reasons. Our society no longer having the kind of "rituals" that help us in dealing with death and dieing and how to effectively process and let go of our grief. IN fact, the so-called Mental Health industry preys upon such folks and the drama they are going through simply because the longer you hold onto it, the more they can bill you (and people say Psychics & Mediums have a scam )

The moral of the story is rather simple; let go and move on with life. You are not the one that died and it is you and you alone that's responsible for picking up the pieces, closing that particular chapter and moving ahead in a positive direction rather than clinging to the drama and allowing it to your excuse for avoiding life's simple pleasures.

I cannot express my empathy for you and your loss at any greater level in that I've learned, after loosing over 30 good friends over a very short period of time (about 4 years) that you simply can't afford to hold on. You can't force your will and your pain onto others in a way that results in their loss or limitations.

I hope you can understand why I've said things in such a "cold" manner and after you've digested it a bit, come to realize that maybe... just maybe, I have a valid point

Andrew newton did this stunt a long time ago -in the eighties during his hypnosis stage show -he used to pretend to hypnotise himself and then hang himself and then "recover" miraculosly.

On the last run of the show he changed the script slightly and pretended it had gone wrong and the curtain opened to show him supposedly hanging there -

It was quite obvious to those in the know that it was a trick but, amusingly the local paper ran a genuine article as " hypnotist in stunt accident " and for months after (Or until his next show) practically the whole town was discussing had he hadnt he.

So this stunt is nothing new

Lin