talkmagic.co.uk

In reply to Steverino, I don't disagree with your views at all and will back up that the performance of various effects and their gimmicks will be dependant on the individual style of the magician that's performing.

As an example, I have a Raven that I got for Xmas a couple of years ago. I wanted one to play with but since boxing day of the same year, it hasn't been out of its box. I found that it didn't suit my style or fit in with what I perform and I suppose that this is the main value that I've got out of owning on. Maybe one day ..........................

It's a very personal choice in my opinion.

I suspect that many magicians will have two sets of tricks (OK - perhaps more but for this example....). One set will comprise of effects that work for them as performers that may also include some tricks that they may be bored with. However, the second set of tricks would be made up of effects that they absolutely love, sort of personal favorites but ones that don't necessarily fit into performance and to be honest, they probably wouldn't try to make them fit. They just like performing them for pleasure.

XshandeX wrote:Secondly Derren Brown (an amazing entertainer) said something along the lines of to make a truly amazing effect you must reduce suspision (if not then he should have) and by using a borrowed deck and not a gimmick noone can contest that anything was "set up".

Derren may well have said that, but if you have seen Devil's Picture Book then you will see that he is certainly not adverse to using some of the most heavily gimmicked decks of cards around.

With gimmicked tricks a huge amount of practice must be put in. What you say about not being able to perform a sleight of hand trick without practice is eaually as true with gimmicks; you may be able to make the magic box work, but you won't have performed any magic without practice.

I used to be a sleight of hand purist. I wouldn't touch a gimmick with a long pole and I disdained self working tricks and card tricks involving maths or stacks as too simple to 'work out'. I came to realise that these ideas are totally irrellevent; it is the end result that matters in all cases, not the method used.

I personally almost never do gimmicked magic. Not that I don't find them effect (in fact, the majority of gimmicked tricks are amazing!), but I just prefer not to use them. I don't even used gaffed cards! I find impromptu card magic just too effective and I'm proud to just use normal cards. I love the idea of the spectator being able to just examine the cards and find absolutely nothing funny about them! (Except I don't like them getting their greasy hands over them! Lol)

I think that doing sleight magic helps gimmicked magic greatly also. I'm certain of this as I do card manipulation. I find that card manipulation helps my card magic greatly and my handling of cards. I speak from experience... That's why I believe that sleight magic will help the use of gimmicks so that you can use gimmicks naturally. So maybe later, I might move onto some gimmicked magic, but for now... I'll stick with my pasteboards!

Steve

Ok,

Maybe derren brown wasn't the best example to use, and i never said he didn't use gimmicks, i am aware he does, but the trick in which he doesn't use gimmicks are by far the best tricks ever devised and shown on television.

in response to xShandex

I don't think that anyone is taking offence, this is just good open debate and is nothing personal.

I kind of understand what you;re saying about presentation and practicing your sleights etc. but isn't the good execution of a trick part of the overall presentation? If you have great patter but poor technique then the presentation is nothing more than poor.

I agree that you need great amounts of practice to become technically competant and there are some who are masters of this but just can't do the words and freeze up in front of an audience. in my opinion you have to have them both to make up a good presentation and that's what I'm talking about.

Derren is a good example of this. Without both parts he'd be nothing in comparrison to what he is - and he uses gimmicks! there are many many ways indeed to reduce suspicion through misdirection and presentation.

I think that NickJ sums it up with his ending sentence!

Posts are too quick on this topic

One thing that you never know with Derren is whether he is using a gimmick or not. He's more cunning than a Klingon cloaking device

I don't think that anyone is taking offence, this is just good open debate and is nothing personal.

Absolutely! Discussion is good (and the whole point of TM!) and strongly held views in one direction are as equally valid as those in another direction .

Hehe, I too have an unused raven sitting in its box. I stopped trying to use it when I realised that many of the effects with it could be achieved more easily by using a few simple sleights that are fairly easily learned (well if not the exact effects, then similar enough that nobody would really think much of it), whereas it seemed difficult for me to set the raven up to work smoothly and convincingly.

Surely this is an example of practice and dedication being required to use gimmicks correctly (BTW I think the raven probably is a great device when correctly used, but its efficient use seemed to be beyond me)

I agree with what Mandrake said regarding presentation. Firstly, I think that is the most important thing in a performance. Because magicians are not employed for an event to show off their skill in sleight of hand regardless of their attitude and showmanship. They are there for the primary reason, to amaze and entertain, and here is where presentation plays a big part regardless of how they achieve the effect.

From the beginning of time both gimmicks and sleight of hand have played an integral part in achieving miraculous effects in magic. A lot of the classics, as dat8962 pointed out, utilise gimmicks - even the good old TT is one of the magicians oldest friends. Actually, I personally think some effects would be impossible to perform without a gimmick.

But on a personal level I get more satisfaction when I pull off a trick with a sleight rather than a gimmick - in other words I would prefer to do an ambitious card routine filled with a whole shotgun of sleights rather than using a trick deck, for the reason that I would find it more challenging, even though I know that means (and should mean) nothing to the spectator.

But here is something interesting; Bill Malone is an excellent magician and comedian! His card handling is brilliant! And yet he still uses a gimmicked deck from time to time to achieve a particular effect. In fact he states on one of his DVDs that one of the strongest reactions he gets from spectators is doing a trick using the ID. He also admits that he vowed in his early years that he would never work with a gimmicked deck.

I also agree with others on this thread; that in order to make a gimmicked effect work well, many times you still need good sleight of hand to do a switch or make it more effective or even to make it work at all.

I just realized I am a little all over the place with this post - probably cause I can’t keep my eyes open any longer. It is getting very late here in the land Of Oz and my brain is shutting down. So goodnight my fellow magicians and I will check this thread out in the morning!

Sleepingly signing off

Costas

Snap!

I have a raven that sits unused as I found sleights were simpler. So much for gimmicks being the easy way out!

As you may be able to tell im quite againt gimmicks, however i would be interested to know everyones opinion on what the best gimmick currently out is, new or old.

lol, maybe we should start an unused raven club, membership only availale to people who tried it, gave up within a day, and haven't touched it since.

To be fair there are some raven affects that you couldn't do with sleights.

As for the "best" gimmick, I imagine there will be at least a few votes for the TT if for no other reason than its versatility.

In my personal opinion, there are no gimmickless tricks.

For instance - if a spectator selects a card, then puts it back in the middle of the deck - you have to do something to get it to the top. A sleight/svengali - SOMETHING.

In order to be truly gimmickless - you should just look at it and say "your card is now on top". They turn it over, it's on top.

If you aren't using a gimmick in the sense of dupes, gaffs and the like, then YOU are the gimmick.

If you go by the dictionary definition of a gimmick - then double lifts, the pass, side steal, undercut, all sleights of hand - are all examples of gimmicks.

I agree with Costas in that it DOES feel so much better having performed a sleight well, than having performed a good effect with a gimmick but each have their own levels of satisfaction in different ways.

I always feel a sense of achievement when performing Queens out of Control PERFECTLY. Not becuase of the gimmicked cards and how they look but because I've hit EVERY Elmsley Count bang on. (It's one of my personal favorites but not one I use when table hopping).

In response to Demitri's bit about what is the definition of a gimmick, I'll go back to a point I was trying to make earlier in the each magician will have a different view on this and each to his (or her) own. I don;t personally consider Gaffs as gimmicks but I know that many will. This is because despite having a gaff, you still have to use a sleight or misdirection to bring it into play so it doesn't totally self work.

Anyway, best gimmick for me is the TT and perhaps there's something in us NON raven users being drawn together (yawn )

Demitri wrote:In my personal opinion, there are no gimmickless tricks.

Yup. Even in mentalism, there's a mind... The ULTIMATE gimmick!

Hey, that's not bad... quite provocative.