talkmagic.co.uk

what a negative thread. why hate any of them? hate is such a strong word and whether or not you don't enjoy th emagic someone does - why does this mean they have to be hated?

I voted Blaine just based on the fact that he has the least amount of facial expression of all the options.

He actually reminds me of Droopy the dog.

Maddened wrote:I voted Blaine just based on the fact that he has the least amount of facial expression of all the options.

He actually reminds me of Droopy the dog.

Haha! I ditto that!

Steve

Penn & teller

http://www.pennandteller.com/

I don't hate anyone of this magicians, at all. They don't deserve to be hated.
But I don't like the style of any of them.
David Blaine is more a boring faquir than a magician.
Criss Angel is the king of stooges. A heavy(?) glaumourish metal band magician, with family as (bad, bad, bad) actors.
Derren Brown thinks he has real mental powers (yeah, right, like my dog).
Penn & Teller, they have a bad program full of lies. Gotcha!

Enjoy!

I really have to agree with Bananafish on this one...

Last time I checked, Derren Brown is constantly reminding his audiences that he does NOT have "mental powers", Yako.

I have to disagree on the Penn and Teller comment, as well. I think the program is quite entertaining - and I don't recall any lies they've told on it.

Criss Angel as the king of stooges is a bit much. I really would love to know why this is continually an issue on these boards. I agree with the glam-rock look, though.

As for David Blaine - I can't completely disagree.

I was highly disappointed with his special - not because of the failed attempt at breaking the record, but because of how much was cut. I'd heard the talks, and post-show sales mentioned Blaine using many cool effects that were "removed" from the show for time. I wish that rather than focus so much on the build up to the actual attempt at the record, they had kept the magic portion of the show intact.

I find his groggy magician style a bit tedious at times, but if he'd pull his specials back to magic, then I'd keep watching.

I agree with bananafish, dont be so negative.

Its like being back in school - I hat this bad cos of this and that!!

Grow up!

Rdw1971 wrote:I agree with bananafish, dont be so negative.

Its like being back in school - I hat this bad cos of this and that!!

Grow up!

i didnt mean to i was just trying to get proples opinions on the subject i should have probably named the post: which magicians do you not like nearly as much as some others based on their stunts or magic?

YaKo wrote:Derren Brown thinks he has real mental powers (yeah, right, like my dog).

Have I missed a meeting or something? Are you sure you've got this right?

Perhaps voting for favorite magician? Wouldnt have been so negative.

Demitri wrote:Last time I checked, Derren Brown is constantly reminding his audiences that he does NOT have "mental powers", Yako.

I have to disagree on the Penn and Teller comment, as well. I think the program is quite entertaining - and I don't recall any lies they've told on it.

Criss Angel as the king of stooges is a bit much. I really would love to know why this is continually an issue on these boards. I agree with the glam-rock look, though.

As for David Blaine - I can't completely disagree.

I was highly disappointed with his special - not because of the failed attempt at breaking the record, but because of how much was cut. I'd heard the talks, and post-show sales mentioned Blaine using many cool effects that were "removed" from the show for time. I wish that rather than focus so much on the build up to the actual attempt at the record, they had kept the magic portion of the show intact.

I find his groggy magician style a bit tedious at times, but if he'd pull his specials back to magic, then I'd keep watching.

I must applaude this post for many reasons... the biggest of which is the seeming sense of level-headedness it envelopes.

But enough of that... I've looked over this thread and thought I'd offer my two-cents worth at a more specific level...

Criss Angel... I've watched him climb up through the ranks since the late 1980s when he first came to the Magic Castle with an audition act and blew minds with his sub-trunk routine. Criss and Derren are probably the only two on this list (as individuals) that have trudged through the trenches the hard way. But they share certain aspects of evolution with Penn & Teller.

Penn & Teller... are, in my opinion, the two biggest A.S.S.E.S. in magic and yet, serious creative minds that I can admire. Even when they "cross the line" on things, I can't help but laugh, applaude and agree about 90% of the time. Though, as one person has noted, they don't "lie" I do feel that they exaggerrate and over stress certain points, harp on issues that really are of no direct concern to them or magic for that matter, and I can't help be see that they, like their guru before them (Randi) have an ulterrior motive that, in my opinion at least, is cruel and inhumane. They may as well be Tv Evangelists, given the tone of their more recent messages.

David Blaine... what can I say, he WAS a genius. Anyone that can give Copperfield a run for his money by doing a one hour special with $500.00 worth of "off the shelf" magic is a demi-god in my opinion. We ALL owe this kid a big vote of thanks, in that he's helped bring an important reprise to magic in which talent and showmanship are the key vs. big expensive boxes and the related big budgets that support them. But, as I'll go into shortly, Blaine has also created a conundrum of sorts... at least he's partly responsible for it.

Derren Brown... he's a bloody genius when it comes to how he's plotted out his PR and career evolution. What little I've seen of his work has been impressive and much closer to "truest" styled mentalism than some of the other stuff I've seen of late. Yet, his more cynical attitude detracts grossly from where his potential lays... in my opinion. But politics being what they are in this industry it is important to toat the company line and kiss the appropriate booty if you are to move ahead with things (the in-mates are now running the assylum, folks!)

NOW FOR THE NIT-PICKING...

I don't know of any major performer in the whole of this business, that's not used stooges at one level or another. So to slam Criss with the label of bing the "king of the stooge" reveals a gross sense of personal ignorance in my opinion... especially in the fact that Criss don't use nearly as many stooges in his shows as Lance, Siegfred, and others that spring to mind, have and do use. I've found that most who assume that stooges or editing is in play do so because they don't know how something really works or why.... they've not considered what was edited out of the routine or the fact that pre-show type actions may have been done, etc.

I used to do a Vanishing Lady type bit in my show with a real member of the audience who was not, at any level, "in on it"... now I'd be exceptionally wealthy if I have a dollar for every "educated" magician out there that complained about the bit I did with the stooge in that none of them could see how such a thing was possible without using one... but that's the difference between being a "Magician" and just calling youself one because you know a few tricks.

The biggest short-coming to all of these performers... at least when it comes to their Tv specials, is the MTv mentality it exploits and in so doing, promotes. Nearly every one of the major "specials" to come out in the past ten years have all mimmicked the style and feel Blaine gave us in his first special. Even Criss Angel, Blaines biggest arch-rival, copied that MTv format thinking it cool and appropriate and failing to see how this approach has hurt his image and limited his potential. The other thing that hurt Criss was being too available.

His first two specials were great in that they used material that was established and part of his live shows... but then he began employing the Henning philosophy of doing a Tv special -- buy it, doit and take it on tour vs. the Copperfield idea of -- buy it, learn it, tour with it and work the bugs out, then featuring it on Tv so you can get another season or two of value out of it.

Being too available costs you quality all the way around. It also brings into the scenario a loss of resource. Especially when you have at least three other personalities getting air time that are chasing the same rainbow and as can be seen right now... are all doing the same stunts; a few short years ago it was Angel in the water tank and now it's Mumble-boy from Jersey... what's the difference besides using a neat looking round fishbowl over a water cell?

In the past year I've seen at least four different Tv personalities do the saame basic blindfold drive stunt e.g. ruining the bit when it comes to it serving as a solid piece of PR for the rest of the world... at least for a while now. It's be demoted to the status of being a "Magic Trick" vs. the dynamic stunt it was once seen to be.

So... who do I hate most in magic?

I hate the idiots that can't be original, that feel that they must mimmick the guys that are "making it" rather than making it on their own merits... I hate all the half-wits at the magic clubs that pat their buddies on the back for a job well done when in truth, what they guy just did was some of the worse magic known to man and god since the beginning of time. I hate all the newbies that want to do what they just saw a seasoned veteran do on Tv but who don't want to learn the basics first and EARN the right and ability to be as accomplished.

Anywho... I was bored so I thought I'd toss in my unsolicited opinions

I personally think it's a little harsh to have a go at Criss for using camera tricks or clever editing. (I'm not saying that he does, just that someone suggested it earlier).

As magicians we may find these tactics less impressive because we are 'in on it' as it were, but for the lay person this is not an issue. If he can use his medium to enhance the effect, why shouldn't he? I have never seen someone who does a dancing cane routine be criticised for using the correct lighting.

But that's just my humble opinion.

Giz

Yeah! I think there must be another concept of Magic I didn´t knew, based on camera tricks, clever editing and the use of stooges as public.
I think that a magician has never to forget or loose the ability to amaze himself. That´s what René Lavand always says. You should amaze yourself with what you do.
So, I find very hard for me to amaze myself, if I had to use camera tricks, clever editing or stooges. I just can´t. Or, I can start thinking that The Matrix or Jurassic Park is one of the strongest magic I ever saw. But I can´t.
I love to see magic. I can watch a friend magician (pro) doing an ambitious card routine over and over again. I know all the sleights, but I can still be amazed. I don´t have to be fooled to have that feeling. When I perform just to myself, I can feel that too. I amaze myself everytime.
But when I see Criss Angel, I don´t feel that. I just don´t amaze myself.
It could be the best magician for the profane public. But not for me. Let´s say he has done good things, but a couple of them are just pathetic. Like the voodoo doll and that silly t-shirt thing, just to say a couple. I´ve found that very vulgar and as an insult to people who like to watch magic.
Well, I could write a lot more, but it´s enough. It´s just my opinion, nothing more. I can still sleep perfect at night with no worries.

Regards to everybody.

First of all - there needs to be a distinct line drawn in some places.

Stooges - camera tricks/edits

These are entirely different things - and should never be lumped together. The use of a stooge is absolutely nothing like the use of camera tricks. I'm getting tired of hearing people speaking of such as if there is no distinction.

And as far as stooging goes, why is Criss Angel the only one ever singled out?

I've seen Blaine use stooges!! Roy never picked a random tiger from the audience! Thousands of stage magicians have used assistants (Hate to tear down the "magic wall" a bit here, but Mr. Copperfield's "assistants" are stooges). Why haven't I heard anyone complaining about these incidents?

When did stooging become such a vile thing? Did I miss a meeting? As Giznorm said - the fact that we're "in on it" may diminish the impact of the effect, but that's just the way it goes. Like YaKo - I am still impressed by performances, even if I know how it's done. It's the performance that entertains - not the underlying method. However, this notion seems to be forgotten when we know a stooge/confederate is present.

But how can any of us sit on the couch and say "that sucked, he just used a stooge....AGAIN..... and then go out and perform McDonald's Aces and not feel even just a little hypocritical? And for the people with this "purist" mentality - you too should feel like a hypocrite when you perform an Elmsley Count.

Back to camera tricks/edits - and the allegations of rampant use of them. I'm still not convinced this is true - as no serious evidence has ever been supplied. Others have accused David Blaine of this, as well - which I am also not convinced of. Can someone point out to me all of the camera tricks that they have seen? If you'd rather cut down on exposure of methods or anything like that, feel free to pm me. I would love to know what I'm missing.