talkmagic.co.uk

Whilst I accept that opinions will differ, please do me the courtesy of not referring to my postings as a rant. I am making points about which I feel very strongly and, so far, nobody has managed to show me how this programme justifies the topics used as being worthwhile television. I don't see it as magic or any art form I've encountered so far. To be very specific, continued use of personal references isn't something I'm happy to tolerate much longer so please keep things as general as possible. Locking the topic is only a short step away at the moment.

all i want to say about this program is that it was shown in the wrong place ie between two classic programes, had it been shown between the to loosely based "magic" films it probably wouldn't have been mentioned much.

as for the magic pretty standard fair, the setting a matter of taste.

It seems a shame that this program seems to be causing problems here, but the way I see it is that you each have your opinions, which have been expressed.
Magicbilly, you saw the prgoram as being a new slant on ideas with a less serious intent to that read into it by others, and as such I don't see why it is worth such defense, it was what it was and if others interpret it differently why does it matter?
Mandrake, you have dismissed it as bad taste, so once again is it worth arguing about, does it justify the board space it is getting?

I did not see the program, (or Derren Brown before it) so cannot express my opinions until I do on Saturday but surely we should not risk damaging the general friendship and leightheartedness this board usually has over a single piece of controversial programming.

Nick

Back to the thread (about time...)

I watched the Russian Roulette show again last night (no, I didn't manage to set the video - my brother-in-law taped it on-spec, as a gesture to me as a magic fan!!! nice bloke!) and being honest, I think it's an excellent bit of entertainment.

The build up to the final climax of the effect was nerve-racking, and the hug of relief between Brown and the 'chosen one' was something I missed first time around. The finesse and execution of the whole show on the part of Derren was the key point here - and Derren was in total control of his audience at all times.

Who cares if it was hocus-pocus? Who cares if it was theatrical?

It was a display of showmanship - which, I'm sure you'll know, is the very soul and essence of Derren's performances - just read his latest book.

It is strange, however, to note that I think Derren is actually quite a shy and nervous guy deep down... he displays lots of emotion, and is quite outspoken - but I recall the Devils' Picturebook, where his confidence is NOT as high - signalled by tremors and changes in his voice, and his rather odd nervous 'tick'...

But knowing Derren, it's probably a ruse....

I see on Teletext this morning that the Jersey Police are claiming that Derren used special effects ammo and there was never a live round involved. Derren was said to have brought over a team of FX experts to stage the show.

Channel 4 haven't said much other than that they made sure everything was in accordance with the local laws and repeated that a blank can cause death at close range as surely as a live round.

If all the above is true then the 'Masked Armourer' had to be in on a switch when he fired the first selected live round. Other than that, I don't really care - it was still a great show and a great effect. Top that Mr.Blaine!

I can't really see the issue, what channel 4 say about a blank is true. Sure it is better from an effect point of view if you know it's a live round, but a blank held an inch from your temple would be just as effective at blowing your brains out. So maybe due to laws he had to use a blank, so what, I still wouldn't dare try it other than with my cap gun and even then I wouldn't be keen on all those sparks so close to my eyes.

Exactly! The whole thing was an illusion of one kind or another - that's what Derren does for a living. He isn't an escapologist or involved in the risky side of things. All aspects would have been checked many times, moves developed and risks minimised.

I'm sure the greatest danger on the night was more from dropping the gun on his toe than blowing his brains out but, what the hell, it was a very good effect and I enjoyed it. It's on video and I'll be watching it over and over just for the elimination rounds if nothing else!

As stated, the damage caused even by a BLANK round would have made a nice little dent in the proceedings if indeed Derren had got it wrong... but believe me - there is no way it COULD go wrong, even with a live round.

If my suspicions are correct, then the whole thing COULD BE performed as described - real gun, real ammo, real danger.

It is true that the sandbag could have been rigged with explosive charges that feign gunshots... it is also true that Derren could have used blanks, or 'noise makers'. But, even in the world of Hollywood, when guns are fired at close range in this way, actors are usually protected by a clear blast-screen.

I'm sorry - but I WANT TO BELIEVE that Derren actually did this effect with a real bullet. I'm 99% sure that I know how it's done - and I would certainly put my faith in the method and use a live round.

The statement made by Jersey Police seems to be more of a scapegoat claim to defer any implications of irresponsibility...

The claims made by the Jersey Police are these:

1: A filming crew was granted permission to enter the Island of Jersey, and perform a 'stunt' using several rounds of blank ammunition

2: The Jersey Police would not allow anything of a life-threatening nature to be carried out (assisted suicide?) and this was merely a 'movie style stunt'

3: The Police insist that the Jersey gun laws are just as stringent as our own - and to that end, the claim made by Brown that the location was 'a foreign one - to overcome gun laws' was falsehood

Now, my answers to these questions are as this:
1: Fair enough. But unless the Jersey Police are trying to cover their own backs after all the alleged phone complaints, why reveal anything? Surely they could have kept a little 'mystery'? Are they worried about copycat crime, or do they think the new-wave of Jersey tourists will be coming over to play Russian Roulette?

2: Why try and expose the whole thing as a staged hoax? Did the guys at Channel 4 break a rule? Surely there was a lot of pre-discussion went on with the authorities that ironed all this bureaucratic nonsense out BEFORE the event... I suspect either scapegoatism or someone said a little more than they should have...

3: The gun laws may very well be the same - but this was part of the theatre! The drama of the effect relied on the build up. So why try and poo-poo it in this way?

My thoughts are that the Jersey Police have chosen a VERY undiplomatic and nervous spokesperson. As a PR exercise, this has gone hideously wrong. They should have thought about the flak they're receiving BEFORE agreeing to let the stunt happen - not afterwards, when they are forced to call 'hoax' in order to maintain their squeaky-clean image, and to prove that they don't condone the use of firearms.

It was a brilliant piece of TV, as Mandrake said - leave it at that. I don't see anyone rushing out and claiming that the car crashes on the Bill are staged, and that Casualty aren't using real blood.

It's called Entertainment, folks - although the 'bunny in the headlights' effect this has had on the Jersey Police has turned the joke on them.

Digressing slightly, all that Tom says is true and the controls are strict. Yet, at this time of year, anyone with cash can walk into newpapershops etc and buy fireworks which can cause similar injuries and hearing damage. Something's not right somewhere!

Its confirmed that he used pyrotechnics to 'shoot' the sand bag but i still enjoyed the show, i think that he is exelent at reading peoples body language. Eat your heart out Blaine, coz this is Brown town

I was quite interested to read some of the mainstream press criticising Derren, stating that the trick was depraved and sick....and why couldn't we go back to "family" magic like Paul Daniles.

...well........I remember quite distinctly Paul Daniels on his prime time Saturday night show performing a "catching a LIVE bullet in a plate" routine. What is the difference? At least Derren pointed the gun away from him when he suspected it was the correct chamber...Paul Daniels was shot from ten feet away with a supposedly loaded army rifle! (it was pretty obvious how he did it but thats not the point is it?)

Paul has done many tricks where 'danger' was involved - those large rectangles of concrete doing a domino effect and crushing the shed where he was 'located' and that thing with the racing car which crashed through a large packing case. All good fun and played for entertainment whereas Derren plays it for a stronger, more serious effect. I can stand a lot more of either - as long as it's good magic!

I must confess I am a very big Derren Brown. In fact I have just bought tickets for his tour next May. (3rd Row centre).

In saying that I must also admit to thinking that perhaps in some ways the critisism for this one was deserved. Don't get me wrong. I watched the show last week and thouroughly enjoyed it.

I mean I knew that at no time was in any danger - and yet still with his wonderful performence he made me have my doubts at the last minutes. He is undoubtable a great performer.

But - possibly exactly because the performance was so good I think that maybe. Just maybe he was a little irresponsible.

Yes. He was asking us to believe that he was willing to risk his life on the faith in his ability to read a person enough to know what number they would choose from 1-6. This is nothing new. Magicians pretend to risk their life all the time. So why is this different?

Well, maybe because too many people have played Russuan roulette for real? Maybe because Guns are too easy to get a hold of (maybe not so much in this country - but who knows what foolishness drunken amercians can get up to).

But I think the main reason was that he was SO good in his performance you actually genuinely believed he was risking his life. and THAT was what was irresponsible. He is a victim of his own greatness?

Hhhmmm.

Talking of magicians risking their lives - was it not on one of the 50 greatest every magic tricks last week where someone (I apologise - I have forgotten who) had a supposedly near escape with a escape routine on a rollercoaster. If the footage is to believed - he certainly looked like he had less than a second left before he would have been hit, and no doubt killed. Personally I suspect a stunt double and camera cuts - but if I am wrong - then he really was a stupid bu**er.

OK, last bit first - it was Lance Burton dodging the roller coaster and you're quite right, daft is a weak word! I doubt there was any real danger as it was an escapology trick and the only difficulty there would be keeping the locks closed and making it look good!

12 months ago I would have not been a Derren Brown fan and, somewhere in the old Forum postings, I think I said so! Fortunately I've mellowed a little and really enjoy his performances. I think the thing that does it for me is that although he is very, very skilled, he has the appearance of being flawed - that sudden nervous nod of the head, the concentration and the general appearance of being only 95% sure all add up to good entertainment. Houdini was brash, cocky, an over the top showman and risked his life, Derren does the same but is far more subtle.