talkmagic.co.uk

I felt like being a bit contenscious.

On here we have read that magic is expensive (from people who can't afford it)

And also that its wrong that some magic is being sold at give away prices (downloads, ebay and the like)

And some is being given freely away.

So here's my rant - do join in!

some magic should be free. Face it, get a book from a clearance shop and you are getting standard fayre. Like professors nightmare, cut and restored, i've even seen healed coke can. Its great stuff and it means that newbies can join in. Its also not got the plasticy look of bought tricks because you can get the stuff down the hardware store or a paket of cards. The problem is that us lot who do a bit more magic look down our noses and imply that such tricks are not real magic. Hey, the layman hasnt seen/doesn't know some of the simplest stuff. I still get a kick out of c+r and professors, as well as single handed knots even though i do more expensive bought tricks, which brings me to my nxt thought.

I am glad that stronger illusions are expensive. Why? because it keeps it away from those people who like to 'just know how its done'. So give it up for Sankey and co who charge a minimum of 20 smackers for a dvd. Keep it just out of reach of the average punter but reasonable enough for serious amateurs. I was disappointed to discover that ebay were doing a time master for £30. Makes it so's good magic falls into the hands of occasional dabblers, probably who don't put in the hours required to pull off a good trick and make it stronger and instead reveal it to all and sundry. Not only that but if a trick is more well known it leaves less about for others to amaze and amuse people with, potentially even those of us who make a living from it.

People also value what they pay for. If you had bought a trick for £15 would you give the secret away? Thought not. What if you bougt a cheapo off the net ... under a pound say? We tell our kids if they want something they have to save up for it, then they will value it. In these days of credit cards we have devalued money and therefore our purchases.

oh yeah, and don't forget that some people actually sell their tricks to make money, so giveing them away is stealing (craig, I read your post recently and felt for you in touchy feeling kind of way. I'd swear, but then Christians don't do such things )

So my point (up for debate) is this.

Make standard fodder even MORE accessible - free on the net even. Don't worry about it, don't stress that it is giving away our secrets.
Keep bigger tricks expensive. If you can't afford them, get a second job! Or stick to the more standard stuff that is cheaper. learn to perform it well and you will have just as much fun as spending the earth. Who knows, someone might pay you for a show and in doing so allow you to buy more expensive illusions which get you better shows etc ...

Anyone fancy arguing the point?

Blessings all

I'm personally in favour of some effects being offered only to groups of people who have proved they can be trusted. The group would have guaranteed exclusivity for a higher price. Eventually, older effects could be offered to the general public, but the group itself would have buying power on their side, giving it a lot of control over how and when this happens.

Dunno really. Just thinking aloud.

I think some tricks dont even deserve the money they charge. One trick that springs to mind that I saw on david blaines latest special was the "Self-Tying Shoelace". That didnt even look good to me and I did show it to a few family members and friends and they all figured out what he was doing. Personally, I think tricks like that dont even deserve money.

I also think there is too much variety in magic products. Lets say I want to start learning some cool street magic tricks. Do I go for one of the 20 or so DVDs that are out or do I go for one of the books that are out? Its hard for someone to choose which ones to buy and they dont want to buy them all as most of them will probably contain the same tricks. But at the same time, you want to know which is the best and which one goes into more detail about the trick.

When I first got into magic I must have spent hundreds of pounds of this gimmick, that gimmick, and goodnes knows what other gimmick. Then it dawned on me (as I'm sure it has on millions of others over the years), the best magic comes from a regular pack of cards, a bucketful of confidence, and a lot of practice. That's why magicians have been using cards in one form or another for centuries, whereas gimmicks come and go.

PS The same applies I'm sure for coins - it's just that I'm a cards man!

Coupla points - agree largely with what's been said, *on the other hand* - I'm a student, and getting into magic as "seriously" as I can afford! I understand that upping the price a little keeps "Mr. Curious with Cash" out of the picture, it's just a shame that these folk have created this situation - the baby with the bathwater as it were, when there are people who really want to put the time and effort into it but just can't afford to go into a magic shop and buy 5 tricks at £20 a piece. Yes, to an extent you can argue that if folk want it badly enough they'll gather the readies eventually, or that it means it's reserved for WPs for whom it's an investment and a necessary piece of apparatus - but in some situations it just boils down to that world wide, age old rule - those who have money have it, those without go without. If you think that's perfectly fair, who am I to argue.

What does annoy me is the hundred reinventions of the wheel. Taking an old principle, putting it on a 10 minute DVD chock full of stylish menus and graphics, giving it a ridiculously unrelated name and selling it as the best thing since sliced white rabbits. I paid about £10 I think for Bobo's Modern Coin Magic - I would have felt happy to buy it at £20, it's that rich. But paying £15 for one over-hyped trick, plus a 5 minute trailer for the magician's next cash cow - grr. Call Sankey "high priced", but at least the guy puts a good number of tricks onto one production. What I'd like to see more of is even relatively expensive productions (£20-30), but when you part with your hard-earned cash you get a good return. Sinful is a great trick - but I paid about the same for a Roger Curzon booklet, and it will take me a year to get to grips with it. Guess which one was the more satisfying purchase.
Plus, when it's a whole bunch of tricks, you feel like you're being let in - feel like they're sharing something with you. The one trick wonder DVDs feels like "here's one we're gonna let you have, because it's gonna make us a packet." If it was really that special and they wanted to keep it that exclusive, they *wouldn't* hype it so much - they'd tuck it away in a book somewhere. The fact is, every magician - beginner through pro - knows how to do Sinful, probably other stuff too... for the simple reason that Criss Angel's PR is that effective that it is a "must have", fashionable effect... whether this is because Criss Angel wanted to give something valuable to the world of magic or because he knew it would successfully pull off the old "line your pockets" trick depends on your viewpoint.

Some interesting things have been said and sadly, a lot of it has been said before... it's an on-going tale of woe.

In the 70's I complained about the $2,000.00 price tag on a John Gaughan made Thin Modle Sawing... it was outrageous! But, I'd jump on one at that price today, given the lowest quality version of the prop now in production retails for between $6,500.00 and $8,000.00 + the cases to transport it... what's really frightening is knowing that this particular piece sold at around $950.00 back in those ago days of my youth... of course, you could get a Hindu Sword basket at one point in time, for around $50.00 too... my first Cigarette thru Quarter cost a whooping $9.50 straight from Johnsons and so forth.

Magic has gotten bloody expensive and there are many, many reasons why. In that I stand on the creative side of the fence far more than I do the performance side I can assure you, it's not from price gouging or anything so underhanded but rather, legit cost.

A Thin Model Sawing as an example, cost right at $1,200.00 to as much as $2,000.00 to build. I'm talking material only, not the 40-50 hours of personal hands on construction and all the other cost that must be added into the price of such an item; electricity, storage, workshop and warehouse rent, insurance, theft costs, etc.

About a decade ago Ken Whitaker and I spent about four months building, tearing about and rebuilding a funky 21st century version of the Zig Zag Lady known as Shadow Vision. The prototype ended up costing well over 12,000.00 in R&D cost before we came up with the best working version of the device (in material alone, not our time, etc.) Add to that the fact that each unit cost (at the time) just under $5,000.00 to make, even when we were building five or six at a time and you begin to see why that $10,000.00 price tag isn't a bad deal, it's actually fair.

When it comes to books -- the selling of information -- price controls really don't work all that well. It's like locking a door, such an obstacle only helps keep honest people honest, a crook will find a way around it and through it. In the case of information our world is filled with scrupulous individuals that could care less who they cost or hurt via their acts of deliberate theft. As Andy Leviss and others have observed, the higher price on certain books seems to encourage such antics instead of detouring them, the result being the growing lack of desire by noted contributors to continue releasing material. I know of at least six major sources that everyone loves, that are in the process of completing a handful of planned projects and once that's done, there will be no more put out by them (myself included).

Before I sign off on this I'll point one other thing out to you... to a pro that's working full time, dropping $100.00 on something is "nothing" in that they know they'll make it up by doing an extra show. In fact, most of us have a "reinvestment rule" in which about 15% of our income is used as R&D investments... purchases on items that "might" work in the show... a.k.a. a bunch of really cool tax right offs

I was thinking today that dvds showing many tricks such as sankey's are good value ... can the same be true about one trick dvd's - perhaps. Many trick dvd's you can almost say that divide the cost by the number of tricks of value, and it works out at about 50p to £1 a trick.

Singles? Well I look at it in terms of value, I look at it as how many times can I reuse the same trick. £15 may seem expensive for one trick, though as craig says think of r&d costs for the producer. However, if I am going to use it 15 times, do I think that the trick has the value of £1 a use?

If I am to be paid for a session, then it once more makes things more balanced.

How seriously do you take your magic? As has been sugested, a pack of cards and a good magic book will go along way.

I like Sankeys revoloutionary coin magic and his cards magic dvd. Its pricey, but enough material in there for people to get their teath into for at least a month.

There is one other way of looking at it. Take a look at your other outgoings. Cigarettes. Booze. Magazines about the latest computers. All of these things drain your resources.

Try this if you feel stuck for cash.

For the next month when you want to buy a filler luxury - as above - , put the money instead in a tin or something. Also, make yourself a wish list. And for each pound it costs gives yourself a consideration/cool off period of a day (£10, 10 days). Use that time to research suppliers, read reviews, even ask members on this site what they think if it is worth it etc.

At the end of a month review your list. What did you really still fancy? Is it the value for money you thought it was.

I'm personally in favour of some effects being offered only to groups of people who have proved they can be trusted. The group would have guaranteed exclusivity for a higher price. Eventually, older effects could be offered to the general public, but the group itself would have buying power on their side, giving it a lot of control over how and when this happens.

v.interesting thought! wonder how we could do it ......hmmmm

Actually, there might be a way!