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So, as everyone is probably very aware James Randi has this million dollar reward for anyone who can demonstrate authentic psychic ability.

My question is, even if you had the power to, say, bend spoons with your gaze only from a distance of ten feet, do you think Randi's organisation would pay up? Or would they merely say "Well, we don't know how you did it, but we don't accept it was psychic phenomena."?

It's an ambition of mine to claim the million bucks. Quite how I'll do it, I have no idea. No matter how good a magician Randi is, or how tough his strategies for testing supposed psychic activity, there must be a way of fooling them. Perhaps several of us could band together & become a team of super-villains with the intention of scamming Randi, and thereby the world?! I wish to be known as Mysterio...no,no,wait...I'll be the Green Goblin....

PS Please read the above with your tongue stuck firmly in your cheek! I just read through this post and realised that some people might actually think I was being serious. Well, you'd be right. I am serious. I want that million bucks. Only joking. Or am I.....

MWUHAHAHA!!!!

I'd be in favour of a Turing test for psychics. If the obsevers can't come up with a reasonable explanation of how you got significant and repeatable results, you're as good as psychic whether it was a trick or not. The operative words being "repeatable" and "significant"!

According to some, the conditions attached to Randi's 'offer' are so restrictive than the money is no danger of being claimed!

If the obsevers can't come up with a reasonable explanation of how you got significant and repeatable results, you're as good as psychic whether it was a trick or not. The operative words being "repeatable" and "significant"!

Most observers don't have a clue how Derren Brown achieves a lot of the things he does that appear to be psychic in nature. Derren will cheerfully admit that he isn't psychic though, so that method of testing must be flawed.

(There are problems with the Turing test, as originally formulated, regarding its usefulness as a true indicator of AI)

Charles Calthrop wrote:

If the obsevers can't come up with a reasonable explanation of how you got significant and repeatable results, you're as good as psychic whether it was a trick or not. The operative words being "repeatable" and "significant"!

Most observers don't have a clue how Derren Brown achieves a lot of the things he does that appear to be psychic in nature. Derren will cheerfully admit that he isn't psychic though, so that method of testing must be flawed.

(There are problems with the Turing test, as originally formulated, regarding its usefulness as a true indicator of AI)

Yes, I know there are problems with it, and I know that Brown claims nothing more than being clever, but I'm on about the people who, for whatever reason, truly want people to think of them, or indeed possibly think of themselves, as being "psychic". Perhaps a pass would mean that someone "gave the illusion of beng psychic under controlled conditions to such an extent that no method was apparent". This would cover people who are just good at muddling through and those using a method so good that it may as well be the real thing anyway.

EDIT: Spelling is clearly not my strong poynt with a head cold...

Firstly, even Ray Hayman of CSICOPS has pointed out that Randi's Challenge is 100% bogus and non-"Scientific" though that is what the old fart keeps preaching. But, here's what one article on Mr. R says about the MILLION...
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James Randi's "$1 million challenge"
Most people have heard of the challenge by James Randi offering $1 million to anyone who can demonstrate psychic powers.

On the face of it, Randi's challenge must be a good thing mustn't it? There's a million dollars just sitting there waiting to be picked up, and all anyone has to do to win it is perform under controlled conditions the kind of claim we read about every day in the newspapers -- spoon bending, mind-reading, remote viewing.

So doesn’t the mere fact that no-one has won Randi's challenge prove that such things are impossible? As usual in the murky world of "skepticism", things are not exactly what they appear to be.
Randi's $1M challenge was unveiled on 1st April 1996. You can read its terms in full at the website of the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) the organization administering the challenge.*

A quick glance through the provisions seems to show an eminently reasonable and fair challenge. But now go back and look again a little more carefully, this time with the kind of critical eye that Randi brings to exposing cheats and frauds. What you find are some ambiguities that are likely to make any serious claimant uneasy to say the least.

The First Such Ambiguity is contained in the preamble where it says, "Since claims vary greatly in character and scope, specific rules must be formulated for each applicant."

This means, quite reasonably, that the rules for any particular attempt cannot be finalized until a claimant steps forward and announces what he or she is going to do -- bend spoons, read minds or walk on fire. But it also means that Randi will fomulate the rules for each individual attempt at his challenge on an ad hoc basis. And, of course, the claimant has to agree to these ad hoc rules. If he or she does not agree, the contest will not take place at all.

The Second Ambiguity is in Clause 4, which says that "Tests will be designed in such a way that no "judging" procedure is required. Results will be self-evident to any observer, in accordance with the rules which will be agreed upon by all parties in advance of any formal testing procedure taking place."

This means, quite reasonably, that there will be no interminable arguments by 'experts' over statistical measurements. Either the spoon bends or it doesn't: either the claimant reads minds or he doesn't. The written rules, agreed up front, will decide.

But it also means that there will be no objective, independent judging or adjudication, by scientific criteria, carried out by qualified professional scientists. Randi alone will say whether the terms of the challenge have been met -- whether the metal was bent psychically, or the electronic instrument deflected by mental power, or the remote image was correctly reproduced. In the event that the claimant insists the written terms have been met, but Randi disagrees, then it will be Randi's decision that prevails.

Not only will Randi be the sole judge of whether the claimant is successful, but even if a claimant appeals on scientific grounds that he has met the agreed terms of the challenge, Randi will be the sole arbiter of any appeal as well. Randi says there will be "no judging". In reality, he is both judge and jury -- not only of the claimant's cause but of his own cause as well.

With these two major ambiguities in the rules it would not be surprising if Randi never found a serious claimant to accept his challenge. Any potential claimant who reads the rules carefully will be concerned about two things.

First that the terms enable Randi to draw up specific rules that are unwinnable -- and hence that no claimant would agree to -- and then enable him to claim that "no-one has won the prize".

Second there is Randi's own objectivity. His position can be understood from his own writings such as this.


"The scientific community, too, must bear the blame. When a Mississippi inventor obtained the signatures of some thirty Ph.D.'s (most of them physicists) on a document attesting that he had discovered a genuine "free-energy" machine (essentially a perpetual motion device), and when the U.S. Patent office issued a patent in 1979 to another inventor of a "permanent magnet motor" that required no power input, there was little reaction from the scientific community. The "cold fusion" farce should have been tossed onto the trash heap long ago, but justifiable fear of legal actions by offended supporters has stifled opponents."

"These absurd claims, along with the claims of the dowsers, the homeopaths, the colored-light quacks and the psychic spoon-benders, can be directly, definitively, and economically tested and then disposed of if they fail the tests."

It doesn't seem to have occurred to Randi that the thirty Ph.D.'s who attested to the new machine might know a little more about physics than he does.

Given uninformed and prejudiced views such as these, the concern will be that Randi, as sole judge of success, will never accept that paranormal phenomena have been demonstrated because his position is that he knows on a priori grounds that the paranormal is impossible and hence whatever the claimant has demonstrated must be merely an unexplained trick of some kind.

I put these ambiguities in the rules to James Randi. He dismissed them, saying only that I should "read the rules", and suggesting that I am a "nitpicker" and "pedant".

Randi is a non-scientist who has announced that -- by some undisclosed but non-scientific means -- he knows that such anomalous claims are farcical and 'absurd', and should be 'tossed on the trash heap.'
The Real Facts Are That Randi Is Doing Exactly What He Has Accused Some Scientists Of:

1.he has conducted no properly designed experiments,
2.has published no empirical results (reproducible or otherwise)
3.and has not submitted himself to any peer-review process.

Yet he expects us to accept his conclusions as having some scientific significance and meriting attention.

Randi says, "There seems to be a certain quality of the human mind that requires the owner to get silly from time to time. Sometimes the condition becomes permanent, a part of the victim's personality."

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Now, it won't surprise me if this thread is carefully swept beneath a nearby rug as our other thread about Mr. R... seems the political pressure his cult-members are able to apply to organizations and on-line forums is sufficient to keep any kind of honest questioning about him and his game, out of the lime light and outside the thoughts of all the newbies to the magic business who know him only from the on and off Tv show dates. But ask yourself why CSICOPS distanced themselves from him so long ago... why certain people within the skeptic's movement want little to nothing to do with the man... why the more reputable and established members of the true scientific and intellectual communities see him and his fanatics as just another example of quackery -- a zealotism that's just as extreme and cruel (blinded) as we see in certain aspects of the Religious world.

The challenge is simply a tool used by an old Carney for hooking the rubes and pulling a buck. Or, as one person pointed out recently, "It's Randi's way of getting another spot on the Larry King show..."

I agree, Craig. I'm saying it might be time to move on from the unachievable absolute of Randi's Challenge and look at things differently.

I mean, belief in psychic things isn't going to change anytime soon, so why not acknowledge the traditional grey junction between entertainment, belief and skepticism for the sake of all three.

No one has to take anything that comes out of it with anything more than a pinch of salt, but it would be interesting if not at least entertaining to have a challenge that could be conquered by the very best at whatever it is they actually do to produce apparently psychic phenomena, including artifice. As long as they can pass a reasonable set of published tests undetected by whatever means they can devise, they're "the business".

Craig Browning wrote:Now, it won't surprise me if this thread is carefully swept beneath a nearby rug as our other thread about Mr. R... seems the political pressure his cult-members are able to apply to organizations and on-line forums is sufficient to keep any kind of honest questioning about him and his game, out of the lime light and outside the thoughts of all the newbies to the magic business

Can I please point out that the previous thread about James Randi was not "swept beneath a nearby carpet" as the result of any pressure by cult members, but because it seemed inadvisable to keep potentially libellous comments about Mr Randi away from the forum. Accusations were made which may or may not be factual but, since no sentence has been passed by any legal system, we decided that it was best to close the subject. So long as the same accusations don't come up here then this thread will be perfectly safe from our pruning shears.

So we're saying that Randi will never hand over the cash? Well I'm shocked.

Well, he's not the law.

Perhaps if you could get a US court to decide that one does indeed posses psychic powers, the courts could then force Randi (or his organisation) to hand over the cash?

Perhaps the way forward (should one be hungry for both publicity and the cash) would be to sue Randi for the million bucks, claiming that you are indeed psychic and would like the money as advertised by Randi on TV, website etc. Even if things don't go well in the court (v. likely) you could count on some good exposure on all major news channels, and thereby make your own million bucks by writing a book, signing a movie deal etc.

It might not be Randi's million bucks that ends up in your bank account, but hey, no plan's perfect.

We have two different things being addressed here... the legal issues concerning Randi Are exactly why we removed the last thread. We are not treating Randi any differently to anyone else, if the same things were said about the celebrities you mentioned we would remove them too. Please stop bringing the subject up as it is not directly relevent to the discussion.

DO KNOW that I'm not saying this so as to thumb my nose at the management, Glad to hear it I'd hope that I've proven myself around here when it comes to the sincerety of my agenda... that is to help and steer people in proper, positive directions. For me, that includes calling a spade a spade or, as they say, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" and in this case said gander has gotten away with a heck of a lot of malice over the years and rarely gets called onto the carpet... a bit of "equal time" might be nice for a change.

Getting Back To the Main Issue... I was just recently reading an article concerning Telepathy and how science is proving it to be a viable ability more and more on a daily basis. We are likwise seeing how the fine and bearing meassurable impulses of the brain are being harnessed by science as a means for controlling apparatus such as computer commands, mouse and joy stick controls, and of course various prosthetic devices. Even the fantasiful thought seen in the movie "FireFox" in which a fighter jet was controlled by thought, has become an early 21st century reality.

I'm not referring to "quack" situations put forth by questionable people, but legit research that comes out of major Universities like Harvard and Yale as well as resource groups like JPL, NASA, etc.

Even the more mystical traditions... what many would call the "Occult" teach that it is all science and "Magick" happens via the course of natural law. I just think it's taken us all this time to rediscover and in some instances "remember" what it is we used to know (prior to the dark ages and the literaly destruction of technology and criminalization of science... just one of the many wonderful blessings given to man by the early christian church and it's paranoid ravings on evil).

It's Randi's money, he can set whatever guidelines he wants to. the reality however is far more simple than any argument about whether Randi's rules are fair or not.

i do NOT have any "spoon bending" powers or similar... but lets just for a moment pretend i do. OK, so what would i do to get the Million???

OK, simple. I would go very public on something like 60 Minutes claiming my powers. i would suggest the 60 Mins people invite Randi along as well to prove me wrong. then with the cameras rolling i would tell Randi what i planned to do, then get him to set the rules very publicaly.

we would agree to meet back in a week, month or whatever where my miracle would be performed.

in this way, i back myself in 100% because my powers are genuine. i drop this on Randi very publicaly because i want to put him in a position where any reluctance to go forward by him when ensure a very public discrediting of his entire existance. he would be backed into a corner with no where to go, i would perform my miracle and win my million which i have no doubt Randi could get insurance for anyway.

however, i have not done this because i dont reallly have the necessary powers... NOT because I am concerned Randi would keep "shifting the goal posts".

Randi is an amusing old crook and I rather like him. As to his "challenge" it is perfectly obvious to anyone with common sense that he isn't going to pay out even if you produced a ton of ectoplasm out of his left ear.

Of course he isn't. Common sense. If you were in charge of a challenge would YOU? I know I bloody wouldn't. I would find some excuse or other not to pay out as would anyone else.

I met the old buzzard running around like a demented hen round Union Station in Toronto. He told me that the person who was supposed to pick him up hadn't shown up. He didn't really seem to want to talk to me until I told him I was a psychic. At that his countenance brightened and he seemed delighted to meet me. A big twinkle came in his eye and he said "sshh. We cannot be seen together!"

Great sense of humour I found.

I'm thinking more along the lines of cutting Randi out of the action completely. Just publish an open standard and let people step up to the plate. The point is to pass the test, not how you pass it. After all, Clarke's Third Law states that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" anyway, so what's the point arguing the psychic/artifice debate.

The real argument, it seems to me, is whether there's any cash at the end of it. What I say is that if there's some suspicion about the guy who holds the purse strings, get another guy.