talkmagic.co.uk

Thanks Craig, i guess stopping the dialogue is easier than substantiating statements you have made.

as part of your argument you said a spoon had been bent, had been tested and the test results showed a change in molecular structure to the spoon that could not be explained by mere bending with one's hands.

if you are going to use a statement like that as part of your argument, then those of us reading your posts can do 2 things. we can simply accept what you say as fact. or we can ask that you substantiate your statement.

it seems quite clear that you dont want to (or simply are unable to) substantiate claims you have made that a spoon had been bent, had been tested and the test results showed a change in molecular structure to the spoon that could not be explained by mere bending with one's hands.

as a result, i have no alternative but to doubt your statements. OK, so you suggest that just makes me a "typical skeptic". so that means to say one definition of a typical skeptic is one who wont allow you to just "say anything" and believe it... unsubstantiated. i think, to many people keeping track of this discussion, the REAL reason James Randi's $1,000,000 has not been won is becoming more and more obvious... and it ain't got much to do with Randi's rule book... it's got more to do with your's.

ah Craig... that's great. i do so hope you are a good entertainer.

Here is the post that was on the sceptics forum. It is by some chap by the name of svengali. I know him personally. I am highly amused that on the forum in question he is saying lots of rude things about Australians. However he doesn't mention them in this particular post. Here it is:
..........................................................................................................

I am afraid that you do not understand psychic ability. If I knew everything I COULD predict the Lotto. However that is NOT what psychic ability is for and is not the way it works. I have suggested in the past that sceptics define what they mean by "psychic". They never seem to be able to do so.

My definition is a trifle less spectacular and ludicrous than other psychic people. I would merely call it heightened intuition. When you do this kind of work you become very sharp indeed. The psychic stuff happens at a deep subconcious level and there is nothing whatever mysterious about it. We all have it but naturally someone who does it all the time has sharpened skills. I believe I know why it works too.

If someone sits down in front of me I know all about them within seconds without them saying a word. In fact I prefer them not to speak since I like the sound of my own voice and I know perfectly well if they start yapping to me I will never get rid of them.

Now how do I do this? I sense things. And 70% of the time I am correct. You can't expect 100%. This is not an exact science like mathematics.

And how do I sense things? At first I was not entirely sure but now I believe I know what is going on. It is all perfectly simple.

Things happen at a subliminal level. Let us assume someone comes into me ten years previously. That person has marital problems. They have a relative who is ill. They also have money problems. They work say in the legal profession.

In the reading they will manifest certain signs and behaviours. I will have no idea what they are. And it is a very hard thing to explain. It is more than body language although no doubt that is part of it. They will have a certain look and there will be a certain feel for the situation.

Over the next 10 years the psychic will see hundreds of different clients but they will all have variations of the same problems. In actual fact there are very few scenarios. Most people come because of love problems and there are only a few situations that come up all the time. Same with money. Health issues and work issues. There are probably no more than about 20 or so different scenarios that come up all the time. I haven't counted them but that is my estimate.

Now here is the interesting thing. Each person will manifest the same signs, micro expressions and body language that people in similar situations will do. Again and again and again. The psychic doesn't have to study these indications. Indeed most psychics may not even be aware of them. However they will pick them up subliminally and not even know that they are doing so.

So ten years later a similar client to the one the psychic saw 10 years ago comes in with an identical set of problems. Or at least some of the same problems. He or she will also give off the same indications that someone did 10 years ago. Psychics who are not as brilliant as myself will delude themselves that because they know the chap is a lawyer, has marital problems and money troubles they will assume that God has given them great and wondrous powers that are not available to the rest of humanity.

They do not realise why they know what they know. I believe that through having done thousands upon thousands of readings they are picking up on subliminal signs that are the same every time. So they call themselves psychic.

I do believe 100% in the Tarot cards. Not because I believe they have certain supernatural powers embedded in them. I do not believe in Jung's theory of synchronicity even if I knew what the hell it was. I believe that the cards come up at random. However for very logical reasons which I do not have the energy to explain they WILL help the psychic to tune in to the client's life. They simply help the intuition process that I have already explained.

I can always tell if a lawyer is sitting in front of me. It happens very rarely but when it does I always know it. I know when a journalist or nurse is sitting in front of me. I know when I have a businessman. I know when I have a cop coming in for a reading (much more common than you might think)

How do I know? Pure intuition and experience. Not psychic you may say? I don't care what you call it as long as the client pays. The sceptics don't pay my rent so their opinion doesn't really matter. I am only coming on here to amuse myself. Irritating people is a hobby of mine.

What I am talking about is nothing whatever to do with Sylvia Browne or the claptrap that TV mediums come out with. I am not into guessing games the way they are. I am not a psychic medium and I do not contact dead people.

I do know when a close friend or relative of my client has passed away because this certainly fits into the limited scenarios that comes up as I explained earlier. And I sense the signs of it even though I have never bothered to analyse what those signs are. I just know. However I never contact the person because I know perfectly well that I can't.

Many psychics are sincere people who unfortunately are hampered by belief. That is why they get some things right and some things wrong. Luckily for them most people forget the wrong things and concentrate on the right.

There are very few outright frauds in the psychic business except of course some of the TV mediums and the gypsy type psychics. However there are indeed gifted people who do not understand where their power comes from and consequently are prone to deluding themselves as to what is going on.

I must emphasise that I never try to analyse how people are reacting. I barely look at the client. I am concentrating on their palm or the tarot cards. I pick up their reactions at a subliminal level. It is interesting to note that the more tired I am the more accurate the readings are. That is because the logical analytical part of mind closes down and the "psychic" part (for want of a better word) sharpens up.

There. Now you know what it is all about.

a thoroughly fascinating read Mr Lewis. thanks for posting it, however take care not to give the author too much praise... he may attempt to write a Svengali deck book of his own, and i am guessing it may turn out just as good as yours.

please allow me to share with you what your friend (the author) has done here. he has, because he doesn't suffer doubt or fear, been able to de-mystify and uncomplicate an issue that many people have vested interests in keeping complex.

what you have described as "psychic ability" is something we have all experienced. from both sides. an early example may be when your mom just "knows" you took an extra cookie from the jar. she didn't see you take it, she didn't hear you take it, she didn't "count the inventory" or follow a path of crumbs to your room... she just looked at your face... and she just knew... and not because you have chocolate around your mouth.

My dad, runs a very successful business with offices throught Asia Pacific. however he got his start sweeping floors in a big company. he made it to management level before starting his own company. he always tells me, working for a big company with some thousands of employees gave him the opportunity to work with many different types of people. he often uses his experience with people he has had to deal with in the past to help catorgerise people he is dealing with today. there aren't that many TOTALLY different types of people. different combinations of course but one can still draw on past experience to deal with people.

so i am imagining your friend Mr Lewis, sitting in his chair looking at a punter's palm. is he reading the lines in the palm percey? no, i dont believe so. however the process enables him to assess and absorb, this in turn provides information. is the punter's mind being read? not likely. is their situation being summarised and clarified for them? yes, it may be. and so are they helped as a result? well, i could see that it could be possible... in much the same way as the financial advisor helps someone budget better so he can pay his mortage back to the bank faster... crystalise and clarify the situation for someone so they can better deal with it and understand it.

so what to make of Derek Ogilvie, the pyschic in the video link posted earlier by Tomo? Derek most likely does the same type of thing with children. and in many cases the information he provides will be helpful and as a result solve problems. then providing he gets paid... everyone wins. i am afraid however, as soon as it goes beyond intuition and there is a suggestion of "i can read your precise thoughts"... it starts to get into dangerous territory. not because i dont want Derek Ogilvie or anyone else reading my mind, more so because there comes with that, a suggestion that the "ability" reaches beyond reality. and that is both unfair and unsafe.

of course, what does ANY of this have to do with James Randi's $1,000,000 challenge. no doubt he would alledge Mr Lewis that your friend, is nothing more then a VERY skillfull, VERY well experienced assessor of people, their traits, habits, body language, how they react etc. Randi may even suggest that since your friend has been doing this for so long, he has seen most types of people and experienced most kinds of situations. as a result, your not performing something "paranormal"... so, NO MILLION DOLLARS for YOU! well, interesting that your friend never suggested he was doing anything "truely paranormal" although if his ego is half as big as your's Mark i am sure he will tell anyone who listens he is quite brilliant at it, not necessarily psychicly paranormal, but brilliant none the less.

all that's left now is the single issue that started this post in the first place. "themagicwand" asked if anyone thought Randi would pay up if someone could bend spoons with their mind. reflection & comment followed as to why the Randi "spoon bending" challenge has never been won. some will have us believe it is because no matter what people have tried, Randi changes the rules on them.

now that may or may NOT be the case. i dont know. however i think the main reason no one has won the "bend a spoon with your mind million dollars" is because no one can actually bend a spoon with their mind. heck... even Uri Gelller needed to rub the darn thing!

this is just my view of course. and your learned friend may turn around and tell me that someone has done it already, the spoon bent with one's mind was then scientifically tested and the results prove the paranormal was involved. of course should your friend put that forward, i will be forced to ask him to be accountable and qualify his source... i guess that makes me just like all the other skeptics though...

...in the dictionary, psychic is defined as - "belonging to the soul",...

...and psyche is defined as - "the spirit, the soul, the mind"...

...maybe, its all down to labelling; to you Bobby Cat - (and im not attempting to speak for you, only my interpretation that i've gotten from what you've written so far); is that to you - psychic means other-worldly, ghosts upon my shoulder and summerland in my ear...

...which is fair enough if that's what you define psychic as...however, to others, and again - im not speaking on anyone's behalf (only my own) that maybe psychic is little more mundane in some respects, less spectral - more heightened senses...

...but still something that the majority of people cannot do consistently, and therefore could be labelled as "a gift"...just as being naturally good at football, darts, mass-debating or whatever else...its something that not many others have...

...im fairly skeptical on some things, but even so - i still try and keep what little of my mind i have spare open towards the unusual...i don't really want a world that black and white personally speaking...

abraxus wrote:i don't really want a world that black and white, especially when you consider that we only are supposed to be using 10-15% of our brain - i've always wondered what would happen if we could 'tap-in' into more...

Before war erupts at the peace table, can I just interject as a friendly witness to say that we do in fact use 100% of our brains, but roughly only 10% at any one time.

fair-do's tommo...my mistake...

..i wasn't having a pop at anyone, just adding my thoughts to the psychic seesaw...

Abraxus, in reference to the true meaning of the word "psychic"... it is really a word where perception can vary greatly. in a forum such as this, when a thread is started talking about James Randi's $!,000,000 challenge, we must accept the word psychic in it's "Hollywood" form. which means to say, in THIS context, psychic refers to the ability to perform acts of "superhuman mentalism". simply because of the title of this thread and it's content, that's the "version" of the word psychic we are discussing.

so, really simple and uncomplicated. "one of us" has alledged that someone bent a spoon with his mind alone. and that spoon was tested. and the tests proved that the spoon's molecular structure had changed and the only explanation therefore we can conclude is that some "psychic" (in the context of this post) "force" is at work.

well then. if one is to use a statment of that nature to justify one's argument, one should really be prepared to be questioned and asked to qualify the statement. who, when, where, what, how and where can get get this info independently (ie. from a source other than www.uri-geller.com)? if one prefers not to be challenged and asked to substantiate comments such as this, one should not make such allegations.

am i being unreasonable??? what do you think?

B0bbY_CaT wrote:what do you think?

To be honest, I think perhaps this thread has run out of steam and should be closed rather than continue with the way it has gone off course?

"am i being unreasonable??? what do you think?"

i think thats a question only you can answer...

...dont take as what ive posted as inflammitory in any way, an open forum is by definition a polite free for all...

im starting to come to the conclusion that its not all cut n dried, that maybe, just because we can replicate certain 'psychic' abilities, that doesnt mean the 'real' ones don't exist...

i don't understand exactly how i can breathe subconciously, but i do, i dont understand the minute details as to how the subconcious actually achieves that, but i know that it does...or rather, thats what i assume happens anyway...same with any kind of psychic ability...

on the subject of the perception of the psychic - perhaps thats the root cause of many an argument over it all...the perception, the hollywood version (which by definition/usage of the word "hollywood") would indicate a flashy seventh son showbiz style charade, whereas perhaps (and only perhaps) a real psychic (in a more realisitic sense as posted above) might equate to a heightened sense or intuition...

a possible suitable quote:
"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

these are only my thoughts on the subject, im not out to annoy or take sides...just to say how i feel on this topic...

Anything that anyone says that they believe as a matter of faith, as opposed to a conclusion arrived at through the application of logical reasoning really can't be argued with. Faith refutes the necessity for reason therefore there isn't even enough common ground to have an argument (or even debate).

As I'm not really a 'faith person' you should understand that this is a conclusion I have come from observational experience. Which is to say that it's borne out by the testable available facts and from this conclusion I can make predcitions about future...discussions that mey be tested in the future. Probably right here.

Personally I find these threads really interesting, but it's a shame when people make personal comments or take comments personally because the only way to go from there is down. It would be sad to lock threads just because they're a bit contraversial though.

PS Breathing doesn't have anything to do with what's been labelled as the 'subconscious'.

Charles Calthrop wrote:PS Breathing doesn't have anything to do with what's been labelled as the 'subconscious'.

Yup. It's autonomic. Awareness of breathing is always fed into the subconscious though, but it just doesn't need to bother the "you" with it up there in the conscious part of the mind. It's only when you consciously focus on it that the subconscious lets it through.

It's interesting that we receive a couple of million nerve impulses every second, or so it's reckoned, and yet we're consciously aware of so little until something like a panic attack or an emergency, when we get flooded with "new" stuff.

I must say that a miracle has already taken place. I think this thread should be sent over to Randi to claim the prize. It appears that Bobby Cat has achieved something which makes spoon bending pale into insignificance. He has made Reverend Browning stop talking. Truly this is an acheivement beyond science. He must immediately claim the prize. If Randi doesn't pay up on this one that will indeed be proof of his great duplicity.

One little note is that my friend DOES read the palms. He hardly looks at the person he is reading. He is using genuine palmistry according to lore. At least this way every reading is different. It wouldn't do to say the same thing to everyone would it?

What has always amazed me is that magician type cold readers always are reluctant to provided tapes of readings. Methinks that they have something to hide. And the main thing they have to hide is the competence of their readings. I have never accepted the standard wisdom that a reading by a magician cold reader is superior than that of a shuteye. They are often equally atrocious.

On the other hand I have heard readings by psychics (I overhear them at psychic fairs) who know nothing about magic which are excellent. And they are not afraid to give a tape of a reading unlike magician cold readers.

As for the Randi challenge it is a load of bunkum. I have personally met a few psychics who claimed to me that they won and Randi wouldn't pay out. I think if they were truly gifted they would have known that from the start. As I do. And as a bright ten year old would know.

I don't have the animosity towards Randi that Reverend Browning does. I think he is a great showman and a very funny man when he is not scowling at people on TV. And I do believe the psychic world needs a bit of scepticism to keep it on its toes.

I don't mind the sceptics providing they are not too rabid and do not come from Australia. I even had one working for me once selling svengali decks. A leading light in the sceptic movement too. His name is Joe Nickell. He was interesting when he was young. However now he merely looks like a stuffy professor from a university.

I liked him far better when he was pursued by the FBI for being a wicked draft dodger. They even showed up at his grandfather's funeral to see if he would be there. It seemed that Joe wasn't a fan of the Vietnam war and scampered off to Canada to avoid getting shot by oriental gentlemen. I can't say I blame him. I would have done exactly the same thing. I have always thought patriotism a rather daft notion which makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Anyway to sum up I don't see the point of debating with sceptics. There is no money in it. They rarely have a reading. However if they do I can always spot them a mile away and insist they pay in advance. Then I give them a c*** (not the best) reading and deliberately get everything wrong. Serves them right for trying to trip me up.

Mark, are you saying your friend is gleaning information from the palm? as opposed to the palm being part of the process that relaxes the client and allows them to act naturally so a study can be made?

or is it possible your friend subconciously looks at the palm but all his information is gleaned instinctively from other means???

your friend also believes in Tarot, although i took the inference to mean he is NOT turning up the "death card" (which automatically = death). rather that the reader could infact read reactions to cards as they are turned and perhaps glean much from that???

Mr Browning has not been silenced, he was last seen at Goolge typing "legitimate bent spoon tests" into the search function.

B0bbY_CaT wrote:.. although i took the inference to mean he is NOT turning up the "death card" (which automatically = death)

huh??? Maybe it would be a good idea to read just a little bit about Tarot before making that kind of statement. I'll even help you:
http://www.learntarot.com/maj13.htm

B0bbY_CaT wrote:Mr Browning has not been silenced, he was last seen at Goolge typing "legitimate bent spoon tests" into the search function.

My guess is he has better things to do than waste his time answering this stuff.

I'm with Madrake.
This thread has run out of steam, and it's bringing out the worst in some people.

To Bobby Cat i say - the argument with Craig is getting beyond a joke. You're making several new posts on here, all of which you are making as deliberately difficult to come back on as possible.

To Craig Browning I say - You make some valid points, but Bobby Cat is allowed to be a sceptic. Please let it be...