talkmagic.co.uk

nickj wrote:

sauruman wrote:i respect your views but what i don't understand is how most people find it so easy to believe that the universe came to be from nothing (ala big bang theory) yet find the very concept of an intelligent designer as the creator of all things to ridiculous. The way i see it both view points take a certain amount of faith since neither one can be fully proved. Anyways i didn't look through the entire thread but I am Christian as well however since i am so new to magic i haven't really found that it affects my performances. I would like to find some creative ways to integrate my faith with my magic if anyone has any suggestions.

It's all down to what you put your faith in. I don't believe that the universe just happened, nor do I believe it was intentionally created. I do, however, have faith that there is a scientific explanation behind it all. For example, Uncertainty Principle allows particle/antiparticle pairs to simply come into existance for a time inversely proportional to the energy of the particles, it's on a completely different scale but it's not totally beyond the realms of feasibility that something similar happened at the start of the universe.

So yes, I have a faith in something that others will see as being just as ridiculous as I see the idea of an intelligent Creator. We don't have all the answers, and so to make us feel more complete we hypothesise solutions to fill those gaps and put our faith in being correct.

PCWizMe, sorry I jumped in to criticise your post!

Tomo, I like that summary of history to date, but I think it might be a little to brief in places!

i was just wondering given that you believe in a purely scientific explanation for the creation of the universe how do more abstract concepts that can't be explained through the sientific real work in your life? Specifically i mean questions such as the meaning of life, moral codes, ethics,etc. Also, does your viewpoint lead you to believe in general relativism or absoulutes or do you feel that these are unrelated subjects. Sorry to sound like an interrogator im just curious to hear opposing viewpoints.

I don't believe that there is any meaning to life, or that there are a set of absolute moral codes. I live my life to a set of rules; not all defined, nor even yet discovered which are based on respect, integrity, loyalty and care. . So, without the need higher guidence, I feel that I live my life as well as possible.

For the most part I suppose I do unto others as they would have done unto themselves!

I'm not sure quite what you meant about general relitivisms as opposed to absolutes.

nickj wrote:I don't believe that there is any meaning to life, or that there are a set of absolute moral codes. I live my life to a set of rules; not all defined, nor even yet discovered which are based on respect, integrity, loyalty and care. . So, without the need higher guidence, I feel that I live my life as well as possible.

For the most part I suppose I do unto others as they would have done unto themselves!

I'm not sure quite what you meant about general relitivisms as opposed to absolutes.

He, he... you sound like you're a reincarnated Buddhist

The "nit picking" as I'd call it, in which people start posing questions such as the one that lead to your response Nick... is exactly why I've avoided this amazingly long thread -- religion & magician rarely mix well (especially when you're an old crusty dog like me).

nickj wrote:I don't believe that there is any meaning to life, or that there are a set of absolute moral codes. I live my life to a set of rules; not all defined, nor even yet discovered which are based on respect, integrity, loyalty and care. . So, without the need higher guidence, I feel that I live my life as well as possible.

For the most part I suppose I do unto others as they would have done unto themselves!

I'm not sure quite what you meant about general relitivisms as opposed to absolutes.

well you said it yourself you don't believe in an absolute moral code which means you are a relativist. Which leads me to my next question, if there is no purpose in life for you why should you care to live be a set of rules and morals why not throw it all to the wind and do whatever the heck you like. Certainly you can believe in an afterlife, so i don't understand why anyone would care to live a life of conscience without a purpose in life. If there is no ultimate goal, no finish line then why even try if it all is meaningless. Again im just asking because i have a deep interest in the though process of non-chrisitians and people who differ with me in religious opinions. Comming from a Chrisitian stanpoint naturally my moral and ethical code comes directly from my faith in God and somehow i can't see how such virtues as you listed can exsist without some sort of binding purpose and essense. Certainly you cannot connect these virtues with science.

Craig Browning wrote:

nickj wrote:I don't believe that there is any meaning to life, or that there are a set of absolute moral codes. I live my life to a set of rules; not all defined, nor even yet discovered which are based on respect, integrity, loyalty and care. . So, without the need higher guidence, I feel that I live my life as well as possible.

For the most part I suppose I do unto others as they would have done unto themselves!

I'm not sure quite what you meant about general relitivisms as opposed to absolutes.

He, he... you sound like you're a reincarnated Buddhist

The "nit picking" as I'd call it, in which people start posing questions such as the one that lead to your response Nick... is exactly why I've avoided this amazingly long thread -- religion & magician rarely mix well (especially when you're an old crusty dog like me).

i don't mean to nit pick i just need to satisfy me desire to understand viewpoints such as nicks because i am truly confused by them.

sauruman wrote:well you said it yourself you don't believe in an absolute moral code which means you are a relativist. Which leads me to my next question, if there is no purpose in life for you why should you care to live be a set of rules

A few things I've noticed here... Firstly I agree with everything Nick said I also live my life too MY beliefs, which are much the same as his...

I also agree there is no "absolute code".. this does not mean I have no purpose in life, and I almost take offense to fact that because I don't live to a set of rules you consider correct it makes you think I do not care What it means is I think I can judge myself what is right and wrong and hopefully being the civilised person I am make the right descisions to make my life and the others around me peaceful, happy and rewarding.
I feel no need to have to go to church to learn these values and would be offended if anyone thought I was incapable of making the "right" descision in how I choose to live my life.

If you feel the need to have to led in what you do in life, so be it..
I respect your choice in the matter and feel niether better or worse a person for not having too myself.

I did if you look back through this thread comment on a post where someone was honest enough to admit they felt they needed the teachings of Jesus to help them make the right choices in life and I applaud them for being that honest.

If for one second anything I have heard in Church (and trust me I've been there many times as my wife and children are all practicing Catholics and attend mass every week as well as going to a catholic school) made me feel like I was doing something wrong in my life, I would act on it and change.
Unfortunatly I find most of what I hear there common sense at best and hypocritical at worst as I see many members of the congregation outside of the church and see what they act like outside of the 4 walls.. there choice I have no problem with it, its just not for me.

Hope that makes my view at least a bit more understandable.

hmm - can't we put this thing to rest? If you guys would all just agree with my point of view then we could get on with other stuff

saruman wrote:if there is no purpose in life for you why should you care to live be a set of rules and morals why not throw it all to the wind and do whatever the heck you like. Certainly you can believe in an afterlife, so i don't understand why anyone would care to live a life of conscience without a purpose in life. If there is no ultimate goal, no finish line then why even try if it all is meaningless.

Why shouldn't I? I have the free choice to do whatever I want and I choose to be a nice person. I certainly don't consider the possesion of a conscience to be the sole domain of the practicing faithful, nor do I expect all of those who are not religious to be hedonists. Often I want to do something that others would find hurtful, rude, damaging or whatever and so I don't, not because a god has told me not to but because not hurting others has higher priority in my life than doing everything I want.

Things don't become worthless just because there is no reward in the end, the act of doing is the reward. I am learning to play the bass guitar, it cost me money to buy and time to practice and I never expect to acheive any aclaim, nor probably play in a band or perform to others in any way, would you say that doing this is worthless? Should I just do nothing instead?

One thing that I wonder (idly, yes, but wonder all the same...): if our morality has just evolved by chance along with us, if it has just been shaped by society and/or our response to the environment in which we find ourselves: why have we come to value things like courage/sacrifice - plus various other principles that in many instances would actually be detrimental to survival in evolutionary terms?

I'd just like to reply to Mark in something he said a while back - I don't try to fit God into how I perceive the world. It genuinely makes sense to me - if it doesn't to you, then that's absolutely fine, but please don't assume that just because you couldn't bring life and the existence of the Christian God together in a logical way doesn't mean others can't - it makes far more sense to me than anything else, and I've thought about it, believe me.
As for not being punished for the sins of the father/Adam and Eve thing; they did it first - but does it matter? Because the truth is, any of us would have done the same. It's one of these paradoxes which is best discussed over lots of glasses of red wine - we have free choice to do good or wrong, yes, but history suggests that you can usually rely on humans to do wrong in some way. Therefore, the only time you could be justified in getting in a huff about being tarred with the same brush as Adam and Eve is if you are perfect - I'm no psychic, but I'm pretty sure you're not!

Besides, if you take the story of creation as metaphorical - which many people do - what it's really saying is that since they were created, humans have gone against God - again, if you're honest with yourself, you are as much a part of that as anyone else.

And Nick - molecules adhere to strict rules - yes... but why?

Farlsborough wrote:One thing that I wonder (idly, yes, but wonder all the same...): if our morality has just evolved by chance along with us, if it has just been shaped by society and/or our response to the environment in which we find ourselves: why have we come to value things like courage/sacrifice - plus various other principles that in many instances would actually be detrimental to survival in evolutionary terms?

I'd just like to reply to Mark in something he said a while back - I don't try to fit God into how I perceive the world. It genuinely makes sense to me - if it doesn't to you, then that's absolutely fine, but please don't assume that just because you couldn't bring life and the existence of the Christian God together in a logical way doesn't mean others can't - it makes far more sense to me than anything else, and I've thought about it, believe me.
As for not being punished for the sins of the father/Adam and Eve thing; they did it first - but does it matter? Because the truth is, any of us would have done the same. It's one of these paradoxes which is best discussed over lots of glasses of red wine - we have free choice to do good or wrong, yes, but history suggests that you can usually rely on humans to do wrong in some way. Therefore, the only time you could be justified in getting in a huff about being tarred with the same brush as Adam and Eve is if you are perfect - I'm no psychic, but I'm pretty sure you're not!

Besides, if you take the story of creation as metaphorical - which many people do - what it's really saying is that since they were created, humans have gone against God - again, if you're honest with yourself, you are as much a part of that as anyone else.

And Nick - molecules adhere to strict rules - yes... but why?

thats exactly what im wondering.

Wukfit wrote:

sauruman wrote:well you said it yourself you don't believe in an absolute moral code which means you are a relativist. Which leads me to my next question, if there is no purpose in life for you why should you care to live be a set of rules

A few things I've noticed here... Firstly I agree with everything Nick said I also live my life too MY beliefs, which are much the same as his...

I also agree there is no "absolute code".. this does not mean I have no purpose in life, and I almost take offense to fact that because I don't live to a set of rules you consider correct it makes you think I do not care What it means is I think I can judge myself what is right and wrong and hopefully being the civilised person I am make the right descisions to make my life and the others around me peaceful, happy and rewarding.
I feel no need to have to go to church to learn these values and would be offended if anyone thought I was incapable of making the "right" descision in how I choose to live my life.

If you feel the need to have to led in what you do in life, so be it..
I respect your choice in the matter and feel niether better or worse a person for not having too myself.

I did if you look back through this thread comment on a post where someone was honest enough to admit they felt they needed the teachings of Jesus to help them make the right choices in life and I applaud them for being that honest.

If for one second anything I have heard in Church (and trust me I've been there many times as my wife and children are all practicing Catholics and attend mass every week as well as going to a catholic school) made me feel like I was doing something wrong in my life, I would act on it and change.
Unfortunatly I find most of what I hear there common sense at best and hypocritical at worst as I see many members of the congregation outside of the church and see what they act like outside of the 4 walls.. there choice I have no problem with it, its just not for me.

Hope that makes my view at least a bit more understandable.

i am truly sorry that your experience with christianity has been so negative. You must understand that is not how it is supposed be. In my christian experience i never have felt looked down upon but always accepted and comforted by the fact that i can come to Christ at any time in any state.

Farlsborough wrote:And Nick - molecules adhere to strict rules - yes... but why?

Because they do!

This is one of those interesting questions which can be looked at in two contrasting ways.

If you consider that there are so many other ways in which the universe could work, any slight difference in the rules would cause the interactions of atoms to be such that life wasn't possible so how come everything just happens to be so finely tuned that we are here? It must be the hand of God!

OR

We are making an observation from the given standpoint that we exist; if the rules had been any other way then we wouldn't and so we wouldn't be able to make thae observations in the first place!

And who is to say that, with a completely different set of rules, in a completely different kind of universe where even the elementray particles are different that there is not a way in which life could exist?

Farlsborough wrote:molecules adhere to strict rules - yes... but why?

Isn't it the number of electrons in the atoms? This dictates how they bond with atoms of other masses and electronic configurations, doesn't it. This is why life is carbon-based - it bonds with more elements than any other.

The point is, of course, why are the rules the way they are? If the charge on an electron was slightly greater, or the strong nuclear force a bit weaker then we wouldn't have atoms, so is there an intelligence behind the forces being as they are?

My guess is that we will discover one underlying force which explains the properties of the other four.

nickj wrote:The point is, of course, why are the rules the way they are? If the charge on an electron was slightly greater, or the strong nuclear force a bit weaker then we wouldn't have atoms, so is there an intelligence behind the forces being as they are?

I think at some point it's okay to accept that not knowing why doesn't necessarily mean invoking a creator instead. What I think it does mean is that we don't know that particular answer and that the job of belief is to fill the remaining void with meaning. As we've establised however, the meaning we find to describe voids is unique to the individual and in some cases can be bizarre and dangerous as well as comforting and compassionate.

Sorry, I lost it a bit there. What was the question again?