talkmagic.co.uk

Taiven_Grant wrote:My dad is about to become Master of his Lodge.

Congratulations to your Dad!

in 1996 (i think it was) a group of scientists and mathmatitions and Space experts tried to prove that the big bang could cause life so a comeputer program was designed to work out the odds of life happening in a random collision of metiors or space objects, the odds were so bad that in theory it would have taken billions of collisons before life may have existed,

Sorry, I've got to butt in and comment on this one. All of these calculations that work out the 'probability' of life forming from random occurences are as much tripe, from a scientific point of view, as the Da Vinci Code.

Life formed from chemistry. Yes, there are billions of combinations in which atoms could combine that wouldn't form proteins and amino acids, but the formation of molecules is not a random process, there are rules that are followed as strictly as you obey the law of gravity and these laws lead to the building bloack of life when certain conditions are present. Not only did life evolve on Earth but it did it many times; as soon as the conditions were such that basic life forms could survive the conditions they turned up instantly (compared to the age of the Earth) this indicates that even in what we would consider the most hostile of environments (no sunlight, extremes of heat, runaway greenhouse effect, no oxygen in the atmosphere) life will thrive. Even today these basic life forms are coming into existance, I don't have the time to look it up now, but I am sure that life forms as basic as any found in any kind of geological record have been found in fairly new rocks showing that they are still forming on Earth. Astronomers are constantly discovering new planets around other stars, and are getting nearer to finding Earth like planets in the habitable zones in those systems (I have been out of the loop for a couple of years but I think that a planet only 100 times the mass of the Earth has been discovered orbiting at about the same distance as Mercury is from the Sun). It is my firm belief that any planet with conditions even remotely similar to ours (by which I mean the presence of heavy elements and temperatures below the boiling point of lead!) will have life forms of some kind on them.

What about "The History of the Universe in 200 Words Or Less"...

Quantum fluctuation. Inflation. Expansion. Strong nuclear interaction. Particle-antiparticle annihilation. Deuterium and helium production. Density perturbations. Recombination. Blackbody radiation. Local contraction. Cluster formation. Reionization. Violent relaxation. Virialization. Biased galaxy formation. Turbulent fragmentation. Contraction. Ionization. Compression. Opaque hydrogen. Massive star formation. Deuterium ignition. Hydrogen fusion. Hydrogen depletion. Core contraction. Envelope expansion. Helium fusion. Carbon, oxygen, and silicon fusion. Iron production. Implosion. Supernova explosion. Metals injection. Star formation. Supernova explosions. Star formation. Condensation. Planetesimal accretion. Planetary differentiation. Crust solidification. Volatile gas expulsion. Water condensation. Water dissociation. Ozone production. Ultraviolet absorption. Photosynthetic unicellular organisms. Oxidation. Mutation. Natural selection and evolution. Respiration. Cell differentiation. Sexual reproduction. Fossilization. Land exploration. Dinosaur extinction. Mammal expansion. Glaciation. Homo sapiens manifestation. Animal domestication. Food surplus production. Civilization. Innovation. Exploration. Religion. Warring nations. Empire creation and destruction. Exploration. Colonization. Taxation without representation. Revolution. Constitution. Election. Expansion. Industrialization. Rebellion. Emancipation Proclamation. Invention. Mass production. Urbanization. Immigration. World conflagration. League of Nations. Suffrage extension. Depression. World conflagration. Fission explosions. United Nations. Space exploration. Assassinations. Lunar excursions. Resignation. Computerization. World Trade Organization. Terrorism. Internet expansion. Reunification. Dissolution. World-Wide Web creation. Composition. Extrapolation.

nickj wrote:

in 1996 (i think it was) a group of scientists and mathmatitions and Space experts tried to prove that the big bang could cause life so a comeputer program was designed to work out the odds of life happening in a random collision of metiors or space objects, the odds were so bad that in theory it would have taken billions of collisons before life may have existed,

Sorry, I've got to butt in and comment on this one. All of these calculations that work out the 'probability' of life forming from random occurences are as much tripe, from a scientific point of view, as the Da Vinci Code.

Life formed from chemistry. Yes, there are billions of combinations in which atoms could combine that wouldn't form proteins and amino acids, but the formation of molecules is not a random process, there are rules that are followed as strictly as you obey the law of gravity and these laws lead to the building bloack of life when certain conditions are present. Not only did life evolve on Earth but it did it many times; as soon as the conditions were such that basic life forms could survive the conditions they turned up instantly (compared to the age of the Earth) this indicates that even in what we would consider the most hostile of environments (no sunlight, extremes of heat, runaway greenhouse effect, no oxygen in the atmosphere) life will thrive. Even today these basic life forms are coming into existance, I don't have the time to look it up now, but I am sure that life forms as basic as any found in any kind of geological record have been found in fairly new rocks showing that they are still forming on Earth. Astronomers are constantly discovering new planets around other stars, and are getting nearer to finding Earth like planets in the habitable zones in those systems (I have been out of the loop for a couple of years but I think that a planet only 100 times the mass of the Earth has been discovered orbiting at about the same distance as Mercury is from the Sun). It is my firm belief that any planet with conditions even remotely similar to ours (by which I mean the presence of heavy elements and temperatures below the boiling point of lead!) will have life forms of some kind on them.

That would be carbon based lifeforms then?.. what about all the rest?
just to back up what you have stated

Mandrake wrote:

Taiven_Grant wrote:My dad is about to become Master of his Lodge.

Congratulations to your Dad!

It's all good, except mum is threatening to divorce him, on account of her having to be sung to by a room of freemasons

Wukfit wrote:That would be carbon based lifeforms then?.. what about all the rest?
just to back up what you have stated

Well, our only experience is with lifeforms like our own so they are the only possibilities we can even approach talking about with authority.

However, when stating what I stated earlier, it must be borne in mind that these laws only apply because the universe is the way it is. If the laws of physics were slightly different then everything would be different , and if somone were to choose to beleive that this is as a result of divine influence then that is their perogative. I choose to believe that the only reason that we are here to make observations is because it is as it is; if it were different enough that life wasn't feasible then we wouldn't be. In a universe where the tiniest imbalance during the Big Bang could have sent the whole thing down a completely different path, and in which it is possible that the whole thing has happened over and over again during the infinity of time it is inevitable that conditions would eventually be conducive to life.

Those are my views, but I fully accept that, where I see pure chance and inevitability others will se the hanf of God, and this is the way it should be. Life would be pretty boring if we all believed the same things!

Wukfit wrote:That would be carbon based lifeforms then?.. what about all the rest?

If you know of a non-carbon based lifeform, it'll be a first mate!

nickj wrote:

Wukfit wrote:That would be carbon based lifeforms then?.. what about all the rest?
just to back up what you have stated

Well, our only experience is with lifeforms like our own so they are the only possibilities we can even approach talking about with authority.

However, when stating what I stated earlier, it must be borne in mind that these laws only apply because the universe is the way it is. If the laws of physics were slightly different then everything would be different , and if somone were to choose to beleive that this is as a result of divine influence then that is their perogative. I choose to believe that the only reason that we are here to make observations is because it is as it is; if it were different enough that life wasn't feasible then we wouldn't be. In a universe where the tiniest imbalance during the Big Bang could have sent the whole thing down a completely different path, and in which it is possible that the whole thing has happened over and over again during the infinity of time it is inevitable that conditions would eventually be conducive to life.

Those are my views, but I fully accept that, where I see pure chance and inevitability others will se the hanf of God, and this is the way it should be. Life would be pretty boring if we all believed the same things!

i respect your views but what i don't understand is how most people find it so easy to believe that the universe came to be from nothing (ala big bang theory) yet find the very concept of an intelligent designer as the creator of all things to ridiculous. The way i see it both view points take a certain amount of faith since neither one can be fully proved. Anyways i didn't look through the entire thread but I am Christian as well however since i am so new to magic i haven't really found that it affects my performances. I would like to find some creative ways to integrate my faith with my magic if anyone has any suggestions.

Tomo wrote:

Wukfit wrote:That would be carbon based lifeforms then?.. what about all the rest?

If you know of a non-carbon based lifeform, it'll be a first mate!

Is God a carbon based life form? I very much doubt it, if he is able to do all the things they say he can.. but lots of people believe hes there

And as far as the big bang theory goes it would be stupid to think that carbon based lifeforms where the only product of such an huge event.

Thats the point I was trying to get across

nickj wrote:Those are my views, but I fully accept that, where I see pure chance and inevitability others will se the hanf of God, and this is the way it should be. Life would be pretty boring if we all believed the same things!

And that I totally agree with, well said

sauruman wrote:i respect your views but what i don't understand is how most people find it so easy to believe that the universe came to be from nothing (ala big bang theory) yet find the very concept of an intelligent designer as the creator of all things to ridiculous. The way i see it both view points take a certain amount of faith since neither one can be fully proved. Anyways i didn't look through the entire thread but I am Christian as well however since i am so new to magic i haven't really found that it affects my performances. I would like to find some creative ways to integrate my faith with my magic if anyone has any suggestions.

It's all down to what you put your faith in. I don't believe that the universe just happened, nor do I believe it was intentionally created. I do, however, have faith that there is a scientific explanation behind it all. For example, Uncertainty Principle allows particle/antiparticle pairs to simply come into existance for a time inversely proportional to the energy of the particles, it's on a completely different scale but it's not totally beyond the realms of feasibility that something similar happened at the start of the universe.

So yes, I have a faith in something that others will see as being just as ridiculous as I see the idea of an intelligent Creator. We don't have all the answers, and so to make us feel more complete we hypothesise solutions to fill those gaps and put our faith in being correct.

PCWizMe, sorry I jumped in to criticise your post!

Tomo, I like that summary of history to date, but I think it might be a little to brief in places!

Wukfit wrote:And as far as the big bang theory goes it would be stupid to think that carbon based lifeforms where the only product of such an huge event.

I don't understand. Why would it be stupid?

Tomo wrote:

Wukfit wrote:And as far as the big bang theory goes it would be stupid to think that carbon based lifeforms where the only product of such an huge event.

I don't understand. Why would it be stupid?

Ok.. unwise choice of words... how about closed minded?
When you are thinking about something as infinite as the universe do you really believe we are the only living thing out there?

Wukfit wrote:

Tomo wrote:

Wukfit wrote:And as far as the big bang theory goes it would be stupid to think that carbon based lifeforms where the only product of such an huge event.

I don't understand. Why would it be stupid?

Ok.. unwise choice of words... how about closed minded?
When you are thinking about something as infinite as the universe do you really believe we are the only living thing out there?

Ah, I didn't say life doesn't exist outside of Earth, only that I can't see how it might not be carbon-based. I'm querying your presupposition of an alternative rather than choice of words to describe that presupposition's dismissal.

Tomo wrote:Ah, I didn't say life doesn't exist outside of Earth, only that I can't see how it might not be carbon-based. I'm querying your presupposition of an alternative rather than choice of words to describe that presupposition's dismissal.

It was just that, a presupposition based on the fact that we can't even begin to guess how big the universe is, nevermind ponder what other things are out there which might turn our laws of science and phsyics upside down.
I guess I just "have faith" that there are more things in heaven and earth that those we already understand and can explain.
Although I have no idea what they are I would like to think there is more to learn and understand about that great big space we call the universe.