talkmagic.co.uk

Someone on the Bunny asked "what is an ID?" this afternoon

Retracted dew to a change of heart, and with thanks to an eye opening post.

Just a question for those that feel that people with "kids toys" magic shouldn't be allowed to post on subjects they know nothing about.

How many people bought magic sets, such as Marvins, Paul Daniels etc, and then got the bug and decided to take it seriously?

How do people learn, when you are saying they can't ask questions on subjects they don't know anything about.

You want people to learn, but want them to debate topics they already know.

I agree that there are some people who do ask stupid or secret grabbing question.

There are also some that want other people to do all their research for them as they are too lazy.

I suppose it's a case of reading through some of their other posts, before answering. You can then tell if they are asking a genuine question, or just after a free ride.

I agree up to a point, but feel that the effort is spent on persuading people to study more. If they ignore advice constantly, then just stop giving it to that person. Some people do change, so they are worth putting more effort into " directing" them towards being better performers.

There is an unfortunate trend among those who dabble in magic, and even those who rate themselves as magicians, to avoid anything that requires a little study and practice and to rely on tricks that work themselves, tricks 'that can be done five minutes after you receive them', as we see advertised so often. Always remember that the tricks you can do 'five minutes after you receive them' look like that and nothing more. Magic is a craft you must master if you want public admiration.

Some of you might recognise that little snippet, from 50 years ago. Looks like forums are new but human laziness isn't...

It's no longer a "Trend" it has become a way of life. If they can't steal it or have someone give it to them and show them exactly how to do it, then they will either whine about it until they get their way or move on to something that's a bit easier to manipulate out of someone's life.

It is a sad thing that many young magicians do not take to time to learn the craft, to learn the history and the greats who went before them. It is the 'i want it now' culture. They do not see that the people they try to copy started off simple and learning the basics first. I hope this changes soon and people see the most important aspects of magic.

They don't think about the important things such as good presentation, patter. How many have taken a few acting lessons (i did!)? they don't think about good story telling, the best way to approach people and a table. They just get a gimmick that you can perform in 5 minutes. Wow! i can open a packet and read instructions, i am clever!, not! as i have said before "sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken"

If i was to talk about the greats like Robert Houdin, Blackstone etc they probably would not know who i meant. I also have a big issue with people who tell me it is a waste of time reading and researching the old magic books of years gone by. Go back to the Victorian era and you find effects and techniques that people would never dream of using now. All those stunning effects that Robert invented are left to die while people want to levitate like Criss Angel. The stunning levitations created around the Victorian period were amazing and the skill that went into working and assembling these must have been amazing.

I know, i am ranting, but i really feel strongly about this.

I'd like to offer a little bit of defence of the young 'uns here, as I'm hardly out of nappies myself.

When I was young I remember being amazed every week by Paul Daniels of a Saturday night. I liked magic but before the internet it wasn't easy to find out much about it without going to a fair amount of effort and I wasn't interested enough to pursue it. I'm an ideal audience myself as I just like to have my disbelief suspended and be utterly confounded rather than spend my time trying to work out how a trick's done, so I was a happy layman. In addition I didn't know anyone who knew anything about magic and I always saw it as an arcane art that was shielded from prying eyes like Freemasonry etc.

Then one day I turned on my TV and some guy in his early twenties was mumbling at people and making himself float. I was mesmerised. The things I saw were so impressive to me, so inexplicable, that I jumped on my shiny new computer and set out into cyberspace to discover more.

It took me about 2 hours to discover that nearly all the tricks I'd seen had been achieved by a combination of clever devices and neat editing. Moreover, all these devices were readily available from slick looking web showrooms."Aha!" I said to myself "This fellow has got himself a TV show with nothing more than the ability to stand on tiptoe on one foot and to fold a special coin in half. I can be a magician too!"

Needless to say, I didn't think that patter was required either other than to say "Look at this" as I twiddled the secret bit of whatever gizmo i was using at the time. Also needless to say, I got bored very quickly. People didn't scream and run away when I waved my Raven over their hand. They just looked slightly amused and said "Do that again". I couldn't because I didn't know anything about sleight of hand, misdirection, crowd control, whatever.

To me sleight of hand was an old fashioned art. I had respect for those who could do it, but I didn't see how it could be as instantly visual as something gaffed. The first time I saw a shapeshifter change I asked where I could buy the gimmick from. The possibility of being able to do that sort of trick with ordinary materials simply didn't compute.

So what I'm getting round to is that the kids and newbies that come along don't know any better. Nowadays you can watch a TV special, google the name of the performer and get a link to Ellusionist where you can buy everything he just did. If you come across Penguin for the first time you don't see Tarbell's magic course splashed across the front pageyou get a video of some Americans haemorraghing as an urban and gritty type does up his shoelaces without using his hands. I know that in the end this doesn't defend the stupidity and laziness we see all the time here, but I think it goes some way towards explaining why it happens.

Clarification
I never at any point when opening this thread suggested that 'youngsters' were to blame in this discussion.

In fact, I work quite closely with several teens/under 20's who magic skills surpass expectation, and their dedication and knowledge are actually quite refreshing.

Age should not be an obstacle or classification here.

We've all been new to magic at some point, and quite a lot of people started late in life. So by 'noobs' I am referring to people on the bottom rung of the ladder.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY it also appears that many of the more irritating, timewasting 'noobs' are also young. By no means, though, should this mean that young magicians are catapulted into a pigeonhole and judged by their age.

Bet you wish you'd never started this thread.

yes! can i say i was just expanding on Craigs comment and was not having a go at anyone

I take back everything I just said, I decided to look up this Dynamo chap that's all the rage at the moment.

It appears that to get booked for Will Smith's xmas party you must first own a deck of cards, with a duplicate one. You must now learn to riffle force a card. Spend a week learning a bit of xcm. Plant your duplicate somewhere inexplicable. Riffle force the other. Do your xcm for no other f***ing reason than to show off to channel 4 then chuck the cards in the direction of whatever you concealed the duplicate in. Repeat this under very similar circumstances for a few more clips.

Wear your hat at a silly angle. Await your tv special.

I'm going to walk the dog and clear my head, otherwise I might give up magic.

bronz wrote:So what I'm getting round to is that the kids and newbies that come along don't know any better. Nowadays you can watch a TV special, google the name of the performer and get a link to Ellusionist where you can buy everything he just did. If you come across Penguin for the first time you don't see Tarbell's magic course splashed across the front pageyou get a video of some Americans haemorraghing as an urban and gritty type does up his shoelaces without using his hands. I know that in the end this doesn't defend the stupidity and laziness we see all the time here, but I think it goes some way towards explaining why it happens.

That's an extremely good point well made. As I said above, it's the commercial side of magic. We have to accept it and accept that we live in an easy-come-easy-go society where working for something doesn't enter into it. The public want tricks that are both astounding and that require minimal effort so as to look good rather tha create magic for people. It's the "amaze your friends!" side of things. What I think we should do is acknowledge and accommodate it, but why not push the envelope too. Imagine taking a gimmick someone's just used badly, and using it in a way they never knew was possible, for instance?

I think this illustrates the real problem, and it has nothing to do with age. For instance, I like a good self-working card trick myself, but there's a world of difference between finding uses for, say, Finnell's Free Cut Principle and weaving convincing patter around it, and buying a gaff with a bit of paper explaining how to operate it, going out and being rumbled. Maybe this, and the problem of people who can't use Google to look up basic concepts, are actually down to a lack of imagination rather than stupidity or laziness.

If that's true, then age doesn't enter into it.

Off-topic, but I've seen Dynamo close-up. Not my cup of tea by a very long shot, but it's hard to deny he has skill. I would say he's spent considerably longer than a week learning XCM, and while it leaves me cold I'm not sure I would ever be able to do some of that stuff no matter how long I practiced.

Force + impossible location isn't a bad trick. Signing is always better, but if it entertains people...

You're right Charles. I didn't mean to go off on one quite that much and I feel better now I've been outside for a while. No one gets to the point of having their own show without being skillful, the only thing that got me was the repitition of tricks that Blaine did years ago. As I pointed out that was exactly what got me into the craft in the first place but also what gave me the wrong idea about it.

It would be nice to see him using his talent to showcase slightly different tricks to the public rather than card to impossible location and gaffed coin tricks.

I must confess I do a bit of xcm myself and it does get lovely reactions. I'm such a hypocrite.

I typically tend to stay away from XCM. No place in magic IMO. Suddenly you're just a skilled man with quick hands.