talkmagic.co.uk

I think it's a bit rich for magicians to totaly bunk a guy who belives in this kind of stuff, are you aware that if you do a mentalist effect YOU MAKE people open their minds to this even if just a little bit. Ok you can tell them that it's a trick, you can tell them your a pro magician, but unless you expose your method AND they understand it they will go away and fall back on the only method left their brain can explain it as....supernatural.
Even if you put only 1% of doubt in their mind you are adding to the problem that you seem so eager to pull this guy down on.
The mind is a powerful device and it often fools us, optical illusions even the simple ones like are these two lines the same length. I think this guy has problems and may need to seek profesional help in order to get him shown how his mind is playing tricks. It will often make him see what he want's to see, and it's cyclic, constantly reafirming the illusion and making it more real.
I have been involved with many people with mental health issues if indeed this guy has one, they are not mad just broken, and like a broken leg they can be made better.

On the other side of the coin though there are such things as psycic or sycological bullies who see a persons openess to belief in such things and set themselves up in order to rule over that person. Often as they repeat such supernatural and sycological theories they become to belive stonger and stronger in it themselves and the twists(lies) they have to embroil. I have been a victim of this in the pastand it is evil in it's purest sense(because it's pre meditated). If this is the case just walk away and warn others to walk away too.

Craig i agree with what you are doing you are trying to put a bit of belief into all of us which is a good thing. As i said i am not a complete sceptic so i do have a certain amount of mystery in my life which i like. I quite regulay stay over in haunted places to try and get a glimse of the unknown. Maybe one day your wonderful long helpful insights which you give to help this forum (which i read alot as i like your indepth comments and agree wholeheartedly on with most of them) can make me believe in the more indeph part of the unknown.

Hopefully we havent scared our young friend off as you said.

p.s I have been thinking alot over our discussion last night and yes i admit i did phrase my wording completly wrong. I should have thought before just writing on such a touchy subject. Also ive decided to study a bit more into the unknown as maybe my origanal opinion may be wrong and hopefully i can open my mind and believe that little bit more.

I reckon ol' Bill Shakespeare got it right when he wrote:

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
(Hamlet", Act 1 scene 5)

ALL RIGHTY THEN I didn't realize how many people would respond... I don't personally believe that there's demonic powers in what not just my friend somehow used that into trying to make me become a better christian. I don't know but if you guys have ever heard any recordings from "Lemp Mansion" you hear what is played out to be "the devil" and after all that stuff about this little boy that got possed by a demon it's hard to understand I guess.

and craig no offense I dont have niether enough time or the intellegence to get 5 words of what your saying. I under stood delusional thou

confused_lucas wrote:and craig no offense I dont have niether enough time or the intellegence to get 5 words of what your saying. I under stood delusional thou

That's a pity. Since he took the time to actually try and help you, I suggest you take the time to try and understand what he was saying

I didnt mean it like that I mean im too stupid to understand all the big words.. and at the moment I was in a big rush..

confused_lucas wrote:I didnt mean it like that I mean im too stupid to understand all the big words.. and at the moment I was in a big rush..

Ok... first of all I can't believe you're "stupid"... lazy perhaps, not willing to focus and actually learn things (it's more fun to play video games and act stupid with the rest of the loosers from school).

Secondly, I wasn't using "big words" I was using proper words associated with what the average American 10th grader should have in their vocabulary and understand... granted, based on what I've seen coming out of some of our nation's colleges

Now I don’t have as much knowledge on the occult like Craig has but I have a rather extensive library on the occult though. Works by Crowley, Anton Levay et el, I was very interested in this stuff long before I become a magician. I only started magic at aged 22.

Anyhow must of the major religions of the world have a basis somewhere way back in to the pagan times , even now people worship as a pagan. Now I don’t want to start a war of words with anyone on the forum but to debunk this all as Hokum is a bit narrow minded. For these beliefs to have stood the test of time. Crowlyisim is based heavily on old Egyptian beliefs. There may be a spot of truth in this I am not saying there is or there isn’t I am just saying its possible. I use to wear a pentagram not to be confused with the symbol of blathmat. Whilst wearing it I was a lot more lucky just day to day stuff didn’t win the lottery or anything like that. But to me I could draw comfort from it like a Christian from a crucifix. Now I am not saying because it was a pentagram it felt better or just something I felt comfortable with.

As for lighting bolts and levitations. Maybe it has happened there have been many out there things happen to ordinary folk. Once again I am not saying either way this is real or not. The boy could be lying or just delusional who knows?

Two instances of this happening one to me one is from the “Secret life of a Satanist” by Blance Burton.
Firstly me . I have no real belief in physic phenomenon and a lot of people who say they have this gift have been disproved or exposed as charlatans quite rightly so, I think Craig could vouch for this. Any how my mums friends daughter as all was believed she had a “gift” could see ghost etc , etc and we all was took it as a pinch of salt. One day I got so fed up of it I got a deck of card shuffled them , gave the a good shuffle and 3 or four different cuts plus a riffle shuffle for god measures and I got another person in the room to cut the cards. These where my bicycle cards my deck. I delt five cards face down on the table, she guessed or used her “gift” each time and got every card right. Hmm lucky I thought cant have a “gift” is some one else in the room shuffled the deck gave some one else a card told them to take one out the pack and walk to the over side of the room and hide the card in there pocket. She got that right. She was even able to tell you the coin you had in your hand. If this was a trick she never told me how this was done and it would be dynamite if I could develop it. Now the second part form a “secret life of a Satanist” the biography of Anton LaVay (Those of you who don’t know he was the leader of the first church of Satan).
Jane Mansfield was a member of the first church of Satan. Now Jane’s manager had a grievances with Anton so much so , Anton decided to do a curse ritual he cut his picture out of a newspaper whilst cutting the picture he nipped the picture of Jane round the neck, Anton continued the ritual a few days later Jane and her manager was killed in a car crash Jane was decapitated.

Make your own minds up on this folks I am not saying either way if its true or not but its certainly worth thinking about.

Oi Vey!

One of the more balanced books on the subject that I've read is "Bonewits’s Essential Guide to Witchcraft and Wicca" by Isaac Bonewits. He was also a member of LeVay's cult at one time and has a very interesting article on his website about what really goes on (according to him of course - but based on his other work I respect his opinion on these matters) - http://www.neopagan.net/SatanicAdventure.html.
I too have had a couple of interesting experiences with this kind of thing - but I've also been performing long enough to know that because I experience something - it doesn't always mean it then has to be true. Often what you remember about something like this is quite different from what actually happened. So - with these experiences I generally file them away in an 'unsoved cases' file in my mind - somehow knowing that one day the pieces will fit together.

I've been reading this article with real interest and thought that I'd add my thoughts.

Firstly as well as being a 'trick' magician, I'm also a practicing Druid and so have some belief and understanding on this subect.

Firstly why does everyone jump to the conclusion that real mind reading, spritual powers don't exist. Let me present you with some facts, some of which are theory and some are scientificly proven. These aren't directly related to the original question, I just want to try to break a few people preconceptions.

Firstly lets take astrology, many magicians pass this off as fake. And I'm sure that many astrologers are using the same techniques used by magicians in fake tarot and palm readings. But the truth is that the planets alignments do have a magnetic and gravitational effects on the earth. Magentic and gravitational forces have been proven to alter the way the mind works and it's mood. Because of this, it's highly possible that the alignment of the planets and their gravo/magnetic effect on the earth could alter the way we behave and act. At birth, our brains are still developing, could these gravo-magnetic forces effect the way a babies brain develops and their eventual personality. Astrology is suddenly a lot more feasible.

Mind reading? How possible is this? Impossible I hear yo say. But wait, our thoughts are nothing more that a series of electric signals in the brain. These electric signals do cause a tiny ammount of electro-magnetic activity around the subject. Is it not possible that this electro-magnetic activity could be picked up be another and interperated? I know me and my girlfriend are always picking up each others thoughts. I'll hear her say something, when in fact she only thought it.

These are just two examples of many that I could have used. My point is that we don't understand everything. The problem with some magicians is that they know certain ways to create magical effects, using sleights and psychology. The truth is that there are many other things out there which we're yet to understand.

Electricity, a few hundred years ago would have been magic. How would magicians in that day dismissed it's existence? They would have tried, or else just said it didn't exist and was a lie. What about radio, TV, would that have been percieved as magic a few hundred years ago. The fact is that back then these things would have been unexplainable. Why are we so arrogant now that we think there are is nothing left that we can't explain?

While I understand what you're getting at - there's also a lot of hype surrounding this kind of subject - especially with regard to things like satanism. I think it's this 'over-mystification' (if there is such a word) that causes a bit of a knee-jerk reaction which results in most of this kind of phenomena being seen either fake or as a result of some kind of psychological disorder -both of which are possible, but not the only conclusion.

As I study the subject - I realise that real magic is a lot more 'natural' than it is 'supernatural'.

hmm - maybe this should be moved to the Miscellaneous section.

taneous wrote:maybe this should be moved to the Miscellaneous section.

Quite right - it's moved!

the whole electricity thing has fascinated me for quite some time now, i think that would be what i would interpret as ghosts or spirits...

an electrical pulse of some kind, an echo or residue from the "soul" - which in turn is what as i see as the electrical-core of someone...

the thing that powers us, and drives us...so, if you are empathic, its just that you are more sensitive to another's "charge" so to speak...

this is all personally speaking of course, i've had many an empathic experience in my life...